Xpost of Sklansky Thread From Philosophy Forum

[BluffTHIS!]

David made the post I give in the quote box below in the Philosophy forum, but I think it is very important for the reasons I give in my response which I duplicate here as well in a reply below, and might get a bigger debate here.

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Since, in the long run, the busier these forums are, the more money I make, I couldn't let this comment from Phil153 get buried in another thread. So I repeat it here:


"The fact is that some races and cultures just aren't cut out for civilised society. They breed like rabbits and exhibit widespread features of low intelligence, poor coping skills and aggressive, anti social behaviour. Half of all murders (and much of the crime) in the U.S. are caused by a particular race, and as a minority group, I'm convinced they don't have the brain capacity to survive and contribute positively in modern civilisation. Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race remain shockingly low. They are on the border of retardation. Even the elite of this race fail to excel. Compare this with any other minority and the results are clear to anyone without a bias. Asians routinely outperform whites and are disproportionately represented at elite universities, despite being a minority and in spite of poverty and limited integration into society."

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[BluffTHIS!]

The phraseology of that poster clearly indicates racist attitudes. Nonetheless he does describe somewhat accurately many of the evident failings of black americans to prosper in their own country, a country in which many of their forbears were already living here in a state of slavery before those of many whites whose ancestors came over in colonial times (first slaves to US came to Jamestown colony aboard a Dutch slave ship).

This topic is very important to America's future though. Although many of the ills and failings of blacks to prosper in the US have to do with the legacy of racism which still continues to some degree, there are also evident defects in the dominant black culture.

So many black political leaders just ascribe everything to racism without having the courage to look inside their own coummunities for a large if not in fact majority cause of their problems. And when an influential black such as Bill Cosby does dare to make such criticisms, he is derided as little better than an Uncle Tom. Also those same black political leaders always reject such comparisons to the the Jewish and Asian minority coummunities which have thrived here so well.

The cultural defects that are most evident are young girls barely past puberty having children and having to raise those children mostly without a father around. And the drug and violence culture which is always blamed solely on poverty is also a large defect and accounts for the high proportion of black males in the 20s and 30s being incarcerated. The lessening influence of black churches has contributed to these problems. And too often when even black leaders fall prey to such problems like Marion Barry, they are partially defended by blacks who always see a racial attack, when they are the ones who need to take repsonsibility for corruption and cronyism in majority black cities and expel those leaders who are found guilty of such actions themselves.

And there is nothing to mind mind that greater exemplifies the cultural failings of the dominant black culture than the gang rap phenomenon. When you look at the contribution of black musicians to almost every genre of music from Blues to Rock, Soul to Jazz and even Country, then the true bankruptness of the so-called music that is rap is seen for what it is. And especially when it is a vehicle for promoting a gangster drug culture and one that encourages the abuse and degradation of women.

But there are two larger issues, and which are shown by those derided comparisons to other minority coummunities. The first is simply that there does not exist now in the black community an entrepreneurial business spirit and high regard for higher education. Although such comments run the risk of providing fodder for racists who like to batt around stereotypes such as "lazy N", they also need to be seen to have a kernel of truth.

The paradigm for the prosperous Asian immigrant is to come over to the US get a job and rent a bed in a shack with 10 other immigrants, and then get another job. And live cheaper than dirt and save money for a few years and start a business. And only then start a family. And once one or more families members are on this track, bring in more family members into those businesses and help others start new businesses. And then when they have children, insure they get a quality education in science or business with advanced degrees.

Part of the reason of course that blacks have not done this historically is indeed because racism limited their opportunities, but there is little reason such a paradigm cannot be adopted today.

The second issue is the black community's failure to build up themselves economically by concentration of their own resources. And it is the Jewish community which best shows this paradigm. Every Jewish friend and acquaintance I have had over the years has always to my knowledge used Jewish insurance agents, Jewish lawyers, etc. So economically they build themselves up. This is partly a stereotype as well, but it is true from what I have seen. And again as with the Asian community, a high priority is placed on education.

Yet so many racial problems in black communities have stemmed from a perception by blacks that Jewish and Korean retail store owners are "preying" on the black coummunity and offerring little in return. But the real question is, why doesn't a black man or woman own that large pawn emporium down the street or the neighborhood grocery? And why isn't the closest TV repair shop owned by a black? And why doesn't the black coummunity then support such black businesses even if it means paying a little more?

The black community needs a moral crusade (doesn't even have to be religious based) to evict and condemn the teen sex/drug & violence/rap culture that is killing their community. And they need to adopt the successful paradigms of other successful minority communities who came to these shores long after them and have prospered while their community as a whole is mired in economic deprivation.

Now I know that what I have suggested, as have others, will be challenged by the dominant blame-it-all-on-racism political position assumed by most black leaders, partly becuase they will say and have said that the black minority in the US is in fact so large that such measures cannot be adopted. But they can in fact be adopted a block and a neighborhood at a time. And it is important to America that they succeed in these things if they are willing to take on the challenges.

Anyway, that's one white man's long opinion.

[Roman]

very well said, I agree completely.

[Jdanz]

i agree that we need to be somewhat less pc regarding these issues if we want to get to the kernel of truth that you're talking about, but i still think from a bunch of factual evidence you've drawn incorrect conclusions.

I believe everything you've said refers to a minority that was actively oppressed in a way that jewish and asian populations weren't in America (not that they weren't terribly oppressed). A far closer parralel to the systematic underclassing of a population would be the Irish in the 1800s.

If you remove the specific pop culture references this sounds almost exactly like an editorial in Manchester England two hundred years ago would say about Irish catholics.

The fact is that the statements you make about the black community as a whole are true in terms of the condition it is now in. That however has more to do with historical oppression then inherent lack of ability. Furthermore, just like the Irish, the black community is likely quite capable in the right enviornment. (Btw Ireland a hundred years and fifty ago was seen as the most intellectually bankrupt place in the "west" and today, to a large degree, it is seen as the intellectual capital of Europe.

Both races faced hundred of years of underclassmenship, where great effort was systematically not rewarded (where hard work resulted in someone else's benifit be it protestant land owners in the south or in Ireland). This of course has an effect on a community, but i think history shows a great deal of evidence that no "race" is less inherently capable of progress. Human progress as a whole is fairly cyclical and those in power often have a tendancy to see themselves as naturally more capable, rather then the lottery winners of forces they either don't understand or can't control. This happened to the Romans and the British and it will eventually happen to America, and we'll again discover that a lot of factors other then "racial ability" determine the "success" of a race.

[Exsubmariner]

"we'll again discover that a lot of factors other then "racial ability" determine the "success" of a race. "

Guns, Germs, and Steel.

To a lesser degree, crops, and their adaptability to various latitudes, as well as how much energy they yield per erg of work put into planting, growing, and harvesting them.

[Jdanz]

one simple example, i can't really prove it, but i suspect you'll see something akin to this when any race "under acheives" and it likely won't be understood what was really happening till much later.

I'm not going to get into the whole race as a social construct hing, but in reality we're all pretty similar.

[BluffTHIS!]

I admitted the impact of racism on the historical situation which has partially led to blacks not being able to particpate fully economically in the past. But your statement about taking out cultural comments is just more of the same blame it all on racism position. Defective cultural elements and insufficient emphasis on education are the key to the failure of the black community to thrive economically. Racism is only part of the context, and cultural elements provide the majority of the context and are the things that blacks have control over.

Whitey don't make 13 year old black girls have babies, or 13 year old black boys pedal dope and carry guns, or make black youth in general listen to mindless rap crap that promotes ganster drug violence and degradation of women. And whitey don't keep them from pooling their own resources and starting and supporting their own businesses in their communities.

After they have for years applied peer pressure against instead of providing peer support for the problems I mentioned, then they can look around and see if whitey is still holding them back. Taking personal and community responsibility and forging a business and education culture is the only way that blacks can achieve economic success.

And as long as gangster rap is playing on radio stations, you will know that they aren't making the needed cultural changes because 13 year old black kids instead of black adults are still determining the economic future of blacks in America, while black leaders keep up the same old tune of it's-all-the-fault-of-racism.

[Jdanz]

if you follow the logic of your argument, that it is a black decision rather then outside influence, black's economically infererior position can only be explained by racial pathology.

In the context of history you can just as easily say that about the white race in the dark ages compared to middle easterners or asians. It's just intellectually lazy to disregard situation, and assume that a lack of performance by one group is can be explained solely by the current situation.

edit: this view sees black "under achievemtn" as spontaneous and self-imposed, at which point you'd have to ask why.

[BluffTHIS!]

Every nation, ethnic group, religion and social affinity group has a culture and values. My point is that certain pop cultures and lack of appropriate values can be detrimental to any such group's economic achievement. And those things are matters of choice, not genetics or outside influences. Immature teenagers choose to listen to rap crap instead of to jazz. And if they listened to jazz or other music genres, then they wouldn't be getting a constant heavy dose of glorification of teen sex, drug use and violence.

And parents, even of low educational levels themselves, choose or not to force their kids to study and excel in academics, or to allow their kids to do whatever they want.

Any attempt to make it more complicated than that is ducking the issue and refusing to take responsibility.

[ QUOTE ]
then they wouldn't be getting a constant heavy dose of glorification of teen sex, drug use and violence.


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I agree for the most part with your assessment. I just wanted to point out that Rock N Roll (60s, 70s, 80s) largely glorified teen sex and drug use as well (though no violence), and I would guess that since the 1960's that teen sex and drug use have risen sharply because of this. This culture has not stripped whites of any intellectual capability, though.

It also appears impossible to even address this problem without being labeled and dismissed as a hateful racist bigot or an Uncle Tom.