Don't ever think of folding KK pre-flop

[45suited]

I see we have another 'should I fold my KK pre-flop thread' on the front page of the forum. Of course, you shouldn't... but just to re-enforce the stupidity of even thinking about it, I bring you this hand from a 22.

(I had pocket 5's, but this shows the utter donkishness that is everywhere, and why crazy pre-flop action should never get you thinking of folding KK.)

#Game No : 3216545844
***** Hand History for Game 3216545844 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:18358005 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Saturday, December 17, 13:06:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 67780 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: empera ( $800 )
Seat 5: aqrahelmi ( $800 )
Seat 8: lowkey14 ( $775 )
Seat 10: devontart ( $725 )
Seat 3: Vlorg ( $1625 )
Seat 7: cubsfan71 ( $790 )
Seat 2: clozer610 ( $160 )
Seat 4: italianrage ( $800 )
Seat 6: WCAcesUp ( $695 )
Seat 9: GMoney19781 ( $830 )
Trny:18358005 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cubsfan71 [ 5h 5s ]
clozer610 folds.
Vlorg folds.
italianrage calls [15].
aqrahelmi folds.
WCAcesUp raises [85].
cubsfan71 folds.
lowkey14 folds.
GMoney19781 folds.
devontart folds.
empera raises [285].
italianrage folds.
WCAcesUp calls [215].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ts, Qd ]
empera is all-In [500]
WCAcesUp is all-In [395]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4s ]
empera shows [ 6c, 6d ] a pair of sixes.
WCAcesUp shows [ 7d, 7h ] a pair of sevens.
empera wins 105 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of sixes.
WCAcesUp wins 1415 chips from the main pot with a pair of sevens.
Game #3216549908 starts.

'NUFF SAID [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Hornacek]

I'm trying to figure out who played this hand worse, and my final verdict is that WCAcesUp's play is slightly more horrible than empera's.

[splashpot]

I always post this hand when someone asks about folding KK preflop. This was from a $55. Sucks that I lost though.

***** Hand History for Game 2972657227 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:17095588 Level:4 Blinds(50/100) - Thursday, November 03, 01:38:49 EDT 2005
Table Table 68031 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Deceptikon ( $970 )
Seat 9: valorous ( $1380 )
Seat 6: ILIKESCOTCH2 ( $390 )
Seat 5: yeedogger ( $1255 )
Seat 4: empireny ( $2942 )
Seat 3: grizabe ( $1130 )
Seat 2: OreoMonster ( $835 )
Seat 10: accentprpl5 ( $1098 )
Trny:17095588 Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to yeedogger [ Kh Kc ]
ILIKESCOTCH2 folds.
valorous is all-In.
accentprpl5 folds.
Deceptikon is all-In.
OreoMonster is all-In.
grizabe folds.
empireny folds.
yeedogger is all-In.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 4d, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 3s ]
yeedogger shows [ Kh, Kc ] two pairs, kings and threes.
valorous shows [ Td, Tc ] two pairs, tens and threes.
Deceptikon shows [ Kd, Ac ] a straight, ace to five.
OreoMonster shows [ Jd, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
valorous wins 125 chips from side pot #3 with two pairs, tens and threes.
yeedogger wins 570 chips from side pot #2 with two pairs, kings and threes.
Deceptikon wins 405 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ace to five.
Deceptikon wins 3390 chips from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.

[tjh]

Indeed...

If the buyin is less than 30 and the level is less than 2 then a big bet or push or call can mean anything and nothing at all.

One or two players (sometimes more)at this level are playing Roullette or the lottery with their chips. They certainly are not playing poker as we know it. If you do not like that then just wait till they calm down or bust out. I can find examples of all-in with k-4.

--
tjh

[Scuba Chuck]

I was the one who posted recently about folding KK preflop. And my reasons were based on my reads/person who I was playing against.

Let me make an example 45s. Let's say empera was me. If you saw me make that move, I bet you could narrow my hand range down tremendously.

Splashpot, I don't think your example is a good one. You can never lay down Kings after the first 2 levels.

[45suited]

Hey chuck, actually I was thinking of this post from today:

[ QUOTE ]
It's like the 4th hand of the STT. Somehow I've managed to loose t100. That's not the point here. I'm in the BB, with KK. It's folded to Button who makes it t40. SB calls, I raise to t150. Button (has me covered) moves all-in. SB calls. Hero??

Is this one of the rare cases I should fold, or do I press Call and close my eyes?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was from an 11. I should say that on the 33s and below, I would never fold KK pre-flop regardless of the action. (Disregarding some ridiculous, contrived bubble scenario.)

If I remember your post correctly, there was a lot of action (from decent players), and you had a feeling that you 'might' be facing aces. But you still called, correct? And as much as it sucks, I think that the consensus was that it was the right call (one that I would have made as well).

I would just say that I'm a winning player on the 33s and below, but I know my limitations: I will never have a 'read' so strong that I'm folding KK pre-flop. And nobody else on the 33s and below should either because of the tremendous donkey factor. But I do understand your point though....

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If I remember your post correctly, there was a lot of action (from decent players), and you had a feeling that you 'might' be facing aces. But you still called, correct? And as much as it sucks, I think that the consensus was that it was the right call (one that I would have made as well).


[/ QUOTE ]

My hand went like this. UTG raised to t85 on L1 or L2. QuasiFiction made is 225 from early MP. Action to me. My point was, although I don't know QuasiFiction, he is a top 5 leaderboard player. So he either knows what he's doing, or he is a sucker. I tend to put him into a thinking player camp, so I had narrowed his hand range down to AA/KK. I had KK, and since I knew I was either a tie or a loss, I wondered if I should consider folding. I called because that's my auto-pilot, 8 tabling default line. But even though I 8 table, it slows down enough for me that I could have thought this whole thing through. So why I didn't fold, I don't know.

Regarding 'never' having a read so strong, I doubt that. I think my example I gave you was good. My advice is to start thinking about the way you play QQ. Then when you come across a player like me/Quasi/others, you'll see a subtle difference sometimes, perhaps.

Of course, this only applies to L1 or L2. Beyond that, I never fold kings.

Top 5 leaderboard means little - just that he plays alot.

His prophecy winning % is only above average (35.75%) at lower limit tables (20s, 30s)...therefore in my judgment he is just another average player who happens to play alot

My point is..don't necessarily go by the leaderboard because volume is a big factor..

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
Top 5 leaderboard means little - just that he plays alot.

His prophecy winning % is only above average (35.75%) at lower limit tables (20s, 30s)...therefore in my judgment he is just another average player who happens to play alot

My point is..don't necessarily go by the leaderboard because volume is a big factor..

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to address the pokerprophecy results.

You are absolutely correct about the leaderboard. But there's a little catch on this leaderboard, say against other leaderboards. You are only awarded points for firsts and seconds. I think this leaderboard carries a little more weight than a normal board.

Regardless, the leaderboard rank was only part of my decision.

Edit: out of curiosity, where do I rank on poker prophecy?

Yikes!

77 calls a reraise for 1/3 his stack and then calls off the rest on a flop with 2 overcards.

.....and wins!