weird play with trips

scotty34 · #1 12-05-2005, 02:41 AM

Nobody in this hand is a particularly good player.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets

I didn't really want to lead the flop here. If the table viewed me as anything, it would be straightforward. I was hoping for an EP bet so that I could C/R the field. When the bet didn't come until Button, I gave up my C/R plan as I didn't want to blast them out yet. When the whole field called a bet on the flop, I donked the turn - they just called one bet, why wouldn't they call another? Plus, my line looks really weird. I also had no guarantees of Button betting again.

Good, or getting too fancy?

imported_leader · #2 12-05-2005, 02:45 AM

I lead the flop here mostly, but baring that this isn't bad at all. I don't think anyones putting you on a K on the turn, which means they'll probably make some mistakes.

scotty34 · #3 12-05-2005, 02:48 AM

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I lead the flop here mostly, but baring that this isn't bad at all. I don't think anyones putting you on a K on the turn, which means they'll probably make some mistakes.

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Yea, I usually do fastplay when I flop trips. It just seems everyone has been folding lately [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Maybe thats because I usually flop trips with 93 on a 533 rainbow board, instead of a KKQ two-flush.

MrWookie47 · #4 12-05-2005, 02:51 AM

You really shouldn't c/r if you don't know where it's going to come from. Lead the flop.

siccjay · #5 12-05-2005, 04:25 AM

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You really shouldn't c/r if you don't know where it's going to come from. Lead the flop.

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imported_leader · #6 12-05-2005, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I lead the flop here mostly, but baring that this isn't bad at all. I don't think anyones putting you on a K on the turn, which means they'll probably make some mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I usually do fastplay when I flop trips. It just seems everyone has been folding lately [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. Maybe thats because I usually flop trips with 93 on a 533 rainbow board, instead of a KKQ two-flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Things like that are pretty streaky and can easily be victims of selective memory. You should lead the vast majority of the time, but a check every once in a while against opponents with a brain isn't bad.

yellowjack · #7 12-05-2005, 06:16 AM

With a possible straight & flush draw I think it's a pretty big mistake to not lead the flop. This is unless UTG is somewhat selective PF leading you to believe he hit the flop, or if there's some aggro beast in there.

scotty34 · #8 12-05-2005, 07:11 AM

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With a possible straight & flush draw I think it's a pretty big mistake to not lead the flop. This is unless UTG is somewhat selective PF leading you to believe he hit the flop, or if there's some aggro beast in there.

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My reasoning behind not leading was exactly because there is a straight and flush draw out there. On a board like this with 4 players, I would think it is very rare that the flop is checked through. I was hoping for the EP bet so I could C/R, which didn't come, but that's OK.

Does it really make a differece who puts the first bet in? I think in some ways it's better that Button bet than me, as me leading would define my hand pretty well and people would fold their weak holdings. People generally give far less credit to a Button bet than a UTG bet, and are more inclined to call.

I realize I didn't include specific reads in the OP, but most players are pretty loose PF. I would expect them to often mistakenly call a Button bet with A high thinking they may be good, with a gutshot, single diamond etc. They would be less inclined to call that bet from UTG however.

Sure it really sucks if this flop gets checked through - how often do you think that happens? If UTG bets and I get to C/R the field, great. If Button bets, then I can take the line I took in this hand, which given I didn't lead the flop, I think is really good.

Have I convinced anyone? Are there any flaws in my reasoning? Does everyone just think the risk of the flop being checked through as too high?

Nick C · #9 12-05-2005, 07:47 AM

I generally lead, but I think occasionally checking a flop like this is okay, especially if you've hit a couple of lucky flops recently and the table has gotten used to seeing you fastplay monsters.

Part of the reason I tend to lead, though, is that I feel like whenever I happen to wake up, I'm giving my hand away. And I think that my flop lead, which could just be a queen or a semi-bluff, doesn't as much.

I may be over-estimating how much waking up gives my hand away, though. Despite the popularity of slowplays, I do see people walk into them (and keep coming) fairly frequently, when other people at the table slowplay.

POKhER · #10 12-05-2005, 07:57 AM

i think you have to bet the flop, but you was at the table so had a better sense of who would bet or if they would check it though and you got it right so good stuff.

However on the turn, Check raise it or you should have bet the flop, i don't see button raising you so i think you're line is risking and hasn't got any better value(Although maybe you hid your hand on the flop a bit).

bet the flop, or Check/call and check raise turn.