QJo EMP in a Tightish Game

[jaxUp]

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, so my guess is that he's raising any Ace or King preflop

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I agree he would raise those preflop, but his 3-betting range is much narrower.

Also, this turn raise is not good. People seem to be saying that it's okay because we might have him beat here, which is true. However, he will almost never fold this, and we can't fold to a 3-bet. I think that the times we get 3-bet (or called down) when we're behind push this turn raise into -EV land.

[beset7]

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3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

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So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

[tiltaholic]

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grunch

call preflop


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QJo is the textbook example of a hand NOT to openlimp from MP preflop.

Can someone explain why calling the flop is better than raising? Is it because there's only one player in the hand, or the pot is too small, or just that our hand doesn't have enough value?

[bozlax]

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Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

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Oh, yeah. It's an even huger mistake than limp/folding when it's one back to you, and that's a pretty huge mistake. Especially in a situation like this where you've got a guy who may be over-zealously defending.

(By the way, did anyone else almost die laughing at Norm Chad on the Thanksgiving day WSP telecasts continuously criticising "amateurs" for "thinking they have to 'defend' their blind"? He's funny.)

[sean c]

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Is raising and then folding to a 3-bet a big no-no preflop?

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Yes it is a no no. I am not a fan of your pre flop raise i probably muck it from a middle position and raise it from the hi jack, co or button. The turn raise sucks because you can't fold to a 3-bet with as many as 9 possible outs vs an overpair.

[beset7]

awesome. this is good because when I call the flop with overs and I get there on the turn I automatically raise.

[bozlax]

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So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

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The biggest determinant in this particular hand, IMO, is Villan. With TPGK I don't see folding to the LAG no matter what redraws I have (even though it was the draws that got you to the turn in the first place). Looking for an excuse to fold, here, is weak-tight. Rather than raise/folding the turn, just call/call and showdown for the same amount.

[jaxUp]

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This is a pretty good time to take a WA/WB line.

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I am retarded. This is not WA/WB. I still want to just call down, but I just want to clarify that it is wrong of me to call it WA/WB. We are never WA here. He will almost always have at least 6 outs, and we also have a shitton of outs.

Let me rephrase my thoughts on why we should call the turn. If we want, we can raise the turn with what may or may not be the best hand, and pay up to 4BB to call down with TPGK, or we can call the turn, and then call river UI, paying 2BB to show down. This also gives us the chance to raise the river when our straight/2pair/trips comes in.

[tiltaholic]

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3.I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet. Getting him to fold AK is very nice for you here. However, with the gutshot + 2 pair/trips draw, you can't fold to the 3-bet because now you've bloated the pot. Call turn and call river.

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So in a smaller pot or with less outs (maybe sans gutshot) I can raise/fold to a 3-bet here?

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i think the two primary reasons for not raising the turn are:
-the aggressiveness of the villian.
-the likelyhood we are behind.

if we put villian on a tight range of "3-bets from the SB" we are only currently ahead of 99, AQ, and AK, while behind to TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, and AJ. at first glance that looks like ahead of 44 combinations and behind 60.

so that right there argues against a turn raise.

but we also know him to be aggressive. which means he is very likley to 3-bet us, independant of the pot size. a turn raise would be optimal if we thought villian would only call, even with a better hand (and then check the river or would call on the turn with missed overcards but won't put a bet in on the river).

since he's aggressive, we get 2 bets in anyway by calling the turn and calling the river.