"Playing Poker": Theory and Practice

[bigalt]

Aside from the pace differences between considering hands on the forums and while playing online, the format and settings are entirely different as well.

I personally think that posting hands and responding to hands on here can only take you so far. The threads that have really helped me are the ones which turn into an argument where people attack the situation from many sides and eventually zone in on a fundamental issue. But for a lot of the hands we see go through, we're training ourselves to "see" the situation in words on the screen, looking at the entire picture at once-- "let's see, the conveniently identified villain open limped in MP and then called the flop and check raised the turn, so..." i.e. the information is expressed very differently than in the game.

Which leads to my biggest problem when trying to truly focus playing on the table. I just don't know when to pay attention. Even on hands that I'm involved in, it's not until something interesting happens that I start to pay attention-- "oh crap, i just got check-raised on the turn. now what exactly happened leading up to that...?" You really have to work to remember the sequence of events, and though you probably can recall it, it's just that-- a sequence, rather than one big picture. Much different to read, IMO.

Man I'm tired, and I have no idea what I just typed. This is the sports betting forum right?

[Pharity]

Sounds like ur playing on autopilot. Maybe too many tables? Or maybe ur not just paying enough attention. Have you read Schoonmakers book? I think the chapter about "thinking visibly" was really helpful to get rid of the autopilot. And yea.. This is the sports betting forum..

[Moozh]

Good post. I've definitely thought about this also. While you seem to think that it's a bad thing that you're great at theory and bad at practice, I don't think you're looking at it the right way.

While I imagine it's possible for someone to master the 'practice' without the theory, I would expect that person to be very rare. I think the addage "learn to walk before you learn to run" applies very appropriately here. You shouldn't expect to be able to immediately turn your knowledge of theory into immedate practical use.

I think learning the theory behind poker is really one step in the development of a player (yes, perhaps obvious). What I want to make clear though is that I think the ability to put this knowledge to use is a completely separate step that comes after mastery of the theory is achieved.

Thus, you shouldn't despair that you post better than you play. I imagine that a vast majority of the people here are the same way. I also think that the practical ability isn't something that is innate, but rather something that must be developed over time. There are two ways to do this.

One is by continuing to post here and to take the time outside of a game to think about hands on multiple levels. This should give you practice with the thought process required during a game.

And thus, naturally, the other step is to make sure you are trying to apply this same thought process that you are developing here to the games as you play. This shouldn't come naturally because you don't start with experience doing it.

Over time, if you make the effort to try and think about hands while you play (and not just let yourself auto-pilot), you should become more and more comfortable at approching hands on a higher level during a game.

Well if you don't mind a sports analogy. A year or so back when Tiger Woods was not doing so hot. People would ask him about his swing and he would say that on the range he was hitting shot after shot perfectly and that the swing changes were taking hold. He called himself ranger rick. Eventually he started translating how he was hitting the ball on the range to real play.

Take from this what you will. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Moozh]

Hmm, just wanted to say that after reading my post again, it kind of comes off as a direct reply to Deranged. I just wanted to say to the OP that I realize this is more of a general statement and that my post should be read more as a statement to anyone (including myself) who feels the same way about posting better than you play.

[thejameser]

poker is as much a practice of discipline as it is an application of theory.

[flair1239]

Deranged,

Another good post. I felt as if you were talking about me, as I feel I am in the same boat.

I think in one of the Poker Essays books, Mason talks about how important thinking away from the table is, and in the First Super System (I have not read the 2nd one and have no interest in doing so) Brunson talks about how the subconsious mind cues information for you without you knowing it (The more I play the more I think this is true).

I four table (usually a couple full and a couple short handed games) and many times during a session I will be faced with two difficult complex situations at the same time. The funny thing is that I ususally know if I made a bad play about a .5 second after I click the button (I say damn it.. why did I do that). But that too is educational, as those moments beome less and less.

I think just constant refinforcement and thought about poker concepts gradually matriculates over into your real life game.

A side effect of this actually has me posting less. Many of the hands in my sessions that I find interesting are unpostable. Because there were so many factors/concepts involved in my decision(s), and so read based (and especially in shorthanded games rhythym based... meaning the "flow" of the game had an affect on my decison .. which is probably a controversial topic all by itself... but you guys know what I mean), that posting them would have very little content. However the those decisions are the end product of the simultaneous application of several simple individulal concepts. If that makes sense.

So learning the concepts is one level and then integrating them is another... eventually this brew of thinking, posting, playing ferments into "card sense" where in the heat of the moment you may make a decision without being able to verbalise exactly everything that was involved in the decision. But it is because your subconsious poker mind autopiloted the simple stuff, threw it to your active brain to make the judgement on a important issue... then you made the decision... the reason you could do it quickly is because the basic concepts are now imprinted on your pokermind to the point of being instinctual.

[toss]

I think playing good poker is like taking a multiple choice test. You shouldn't spend too long on the question and you should try to make as best a decision as you can with the alotted time. You have to be confident in your decision and keep your thought process in order. If you get overwhelmed with the tables then I'd start closing some down until you feel you have control again.



Good post. Posting is a lot easier since we have ample amounts of time and all the info. laid out neatly in front of us. When I'm playing 3 or 4 tables I'll often have to guess how my opponents play since I play at non-friendly PT sites. I also have an irrational fear that if I take more than 3 seconds to make a decision my opponents will figure out what I'm thinking.

As for getting better at the practice of poker I've grown the most playing .05/.1 at a Prima skin. I had lost hundreds at Party and Pacific and decided to really learn the game. I made concise notes on all of HPFAP and completely broke down SSH. I thought of scenario like flush draws and overcards and specifically tried to apply it to my game. The result is that I gradually built my bankroll up to $75 or so then won a couple of freerolls to bring my roll up to $345. Then I hit Party .5/1.

It seems everytime I move up a limit I have to improve or adjust my game. When I moved to 5/10 I almost never made any attempts to hand read at all. I learned that it was vital as I found myself frequently Stealing and Defending blinds.

[brazilio]

Jason Pohl's article on emulating good players goes into this somewhat, and I thought it was awfully applicative to my current situation. It's called A Secret About Winning. For me the practice has always been something a bit different, more intuitive and less logical, especially as I've moved to 3 and 4-way games where the automation of 6-max and full ring don't apply much.

[MaxPower]

I don't know how long you have been playing, but experience has a big effect on what you are talking about.

When I first started playing, there were concepts that I understood from reading Theory of Poker but I could not use them at the table. The more you play, the more you automatize the basic decisions which frees up your cognitive capacity and then you will have an easier time applying the concepts at the table.

I think playing live poker is the best way to learn how to apply concepts.