On the QT and Very Hush Hush--Wynn 30/60

[W. Deranged]

Hey folks,

In an effort to convince you all that my newly-minted title is well-deserved, I will post a hand where I got thoroughly owned. I honestly think every single street here is questionable.

This is from the 30/60 at the Wynn. There are 2 other 2+2ers at the table; one is Hobbs, and the other (though I didn't know this at the time, unfortunately leading to his repeatedly check-raise-bluffing the flop with air against me) is rt1. Neither are in the hand in question. The table in general was kind of "meh"; a few fish and some standard tightish/weakish 30/60 types.

The villain (button) in the hand is actually one of the better players in the game (feel free to criticize my table selection). He is a 2+2 lurker and former software engineer who recently retired and now plays lots of poker. He's bright and plays well, though perhaps a little on the tighter and more passive side than many 2+2ers.

Deranged is in the SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Pre-flop: Folded around to button who raises, Deranged calls, BB (just another poker player) calls.

Flop (Three players, 6 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Deranged checks, BB checks, Button bets, Deranged check-raises, BB folds, Button calls.

Turn (Two players, 5 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Deranged bets, Button raises, Deranged vomits and calls.

River (Two players, 9 BB): T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Deranged checks, Button bets, Deranged check-raises, Button three-bets, Deranged dies a little inside and parts with 3 light-blue chips.

I suck.

[sfer]

They spread that game? Did the 40 go?

[W. Deranged]

40 didn't ever go. The 30/60 was on and off. At one point late Saturday night the game was three-handed between Hobie, the guy who was the button in this hand, and this horrible drunk fish who spewed like 4 racks to Hobie and the other guy in the course of four hours or so.

[QTip]

Hey:

Obviously I don't know this player, but I'll say this. I would have played A2o that same way if I was villain (except the river obviously). I think not three betting the turn is bad against most aggressive players.

I would have have you on almost exactly your hand, except my first thought would have been QJs...at any rate, some suited and connected Q. I would waited for the turn as well. To think he has a monster at that point is seeing monsters against most imo.

But, like I said, you may know something I don't.

[goofball]

This hand generally sucks. When he raises you on the turn I think you are about on par with his hand range. I'd call the turn and then donkbet the river a lot of the time. If we 3bet the turn and he 4bets we are almost certainly behind. The checkraise on the river is good, no reason for him to find that T scary.

[private joker]

The only street I don't like is the river. If you're vomiting on the turn, then AT has to be a hand you're worried about (if not AA/QQ). AQ is the only hand you just defeated on the river, so why check-raise it? Just bet/call the river.

[toss]

Is BB the type that calls a lot? If he is then I'll bet the flop and force villain to define his hand. He probably won't raise without an Ace. Or maybe I'm wrong.

[W. Deranged]

My thought is that the river is a marginal situation but a check-raise is slightly better than a bet-call, a bet-three-bet, and a check-call.

This guy is pretty reasonable, and I figure I can put him on a pretty precise range on the turn. It's basically: AA, QQ, TT, 66, AQ, AT, A6, KJ, AK, and AJ. I think he's savvy and aggressive enough to play AK and AJ this way, but I thought he was probably a bit too passive to be doing this with absolutely any A.

Personally I was quite confident that a turn three-bet here would be spewing against this guy. I called because I was beating AK and AJ (and the outside possibility of another QT or a weaker A or something) and had 4 outs against all the hands I was beating.

When we get to the river, I've now beaten 66, AQ, and KJ; am still beating AK and AJ; and the likelihood of TT has disappeared. I was pretty confident that he would follow through with a value bet with any hand that was in that range on the turn.

So, I'm now losing to:

AA (3 hands); QQ (1); AT (6) = 10 hands.

I am now beating:

AQ (9); A6 (9); KJ (16); AK (12); AJ (12); 66 (3) = 71 hands.

So my fourth nut hand is pretty strong at this point.

The problem is that when I get three-bet I can eliminate almost everything except the boats and KJ (which I think needs to be discounted a bit at that points, as does 66). So I definitely don't think I can find a cap.

I don't like betting because that'll just slow down hands like AK and A6 which I can get another bet out of. I don't like three-betting because I really don't want to get four-bet and I think he's quite capable of folding to a three-bet with the one-pair and even AQ type hands (maybe... he was pretty solid). I definitely have to call a three- or four-bet though hoping to see KJ.

Anyway, I keep thinking about the hand and can't find a single street I really wish I had played differently, and yet the entire hand just felt so, so painful.

Needless to say, the button turned over AA and had me drawing nearly dead the entire way. From my point of view he played his hand immaculately.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Quick preflop question: I thought it was generally never right to cold call a button openraise from the SB because we don't want BB to have great odds to call, leaving us OOP in a 3 way pot without the initiative. QTs does seeem like the kind of hand to call with though if it's ok to do it.

I like postflop.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Quick preflop question: I thought it was generally never right to cold call a button openraise from the SB because we don't want BB to have great odds to call, leaving us OOP in a 3 way pot without the initiative. QTs does seeem like the kind of hand to call with though if it's ok to do it.

I like postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a pretty small range of hands that I'm willing to call with, and they are generally hands that have enough high card strength that three-betting will usually not get BB to fold a dominating hand, and hands that have some other straight or flush potential.

In other words, it's the medium suited broadways: KJs, QJs, QTs, JTs, though sometimes I'm raising with KJs. I think arguments can be made that calling is correct with some A-high hands, particularly suited ones, where we're not that far ahead of villain's range and are not folding a better A-high hands, so like A7s-A9s. (Though against many players I'd three-bet). Another thing to consider is that the Wynn game is played with $10 chips so the small blind is a 2/3 $20 blind.

Basically, I called because given the blind structure and my hand I think folding sucks, and I don't want to play a Q high hand against a solid villain out of position. If BB comes along, fine, because my hand plays well with more players. I'm totally fine to call the $40 with the intent of checking out early on missed flops.