a KK fold

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise for a free showdown sometimes in this spot.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a board I want to raise for a free showdown on, especially after BB gets called in 2 places.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
No one bets out this flop, as the last bet you're putting in? I'm not familiar with commerce, but I know somewhat frequently at party the whole table will fold to a preflop raiser on a flop like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I bet the flop and check the turn I'm getting bet into on the river with a wide range of hands. I'd rather check it through and see who's interested on the turn.

[chief444]

Bakku,

I actually agree with Krishan here in that I think raising is the second best option. If your hand is good it gets you a free showdown almost always and you gain more those times. I think it would be an easy fold to either a turn 3-bet (obviously) or river bet. But I do think that folding the turn as you did is by far the best here.

Chief

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise for a free showdown sometimes in this spot.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a board I want to raise for a free showdown on, especially after BB gets called in 2 places.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the parlay.

1. Flop leader doesn't have an ace. Maybe 50% of the time?
2. Callers have flush draws/no ace. 70%?
3. Evenyone will call your raise and check to you on the river regardless of whether they have an ace or not because they will be scared of a slowplayed set, strong ace, flush.
4. The 4th flush card doesn't come on the river.

The advantage to raising the turn is you won't get 3-bet very often and when you do it's an easy fold. Your getting great odds on a raise because of the middle players looking to hit a flush. (Getting odds on a raise doesn't make any sense I know but it sorta works). If you have odds to call, call a non-spade river (you are getting somewhere around 5-1), raising is better as it charges drawing hands with a card left.

Now I don't mind a fold. I'm just talking about a line I use in this situation sometimes. Gimme a bigger pot, a laggy BB and I'm more inclined to raise. One caller in between and I'm less inclined to raise.

Krishan

[sfcard]

I like the fold, I understand the merit of the raise. My problem with the raise is that the value of the free showdown is greatly reduced because so many river cards hurt you. Not just a spade, but also a strightening card or one that makes two pair for someone calling down with a pair and a flush draw. Combined with the possiibility that someone has already gotten there, I think this makes a fold right. I like spending one speculative bet on the flop(though I am likely following the check/fold line) given the aforementioned 12-1.

Card

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise for a free showdown sometimes in this spot.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a board I want to raise for a free showdown on, especially after BB gets called in 2 places.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the parlay.

1. Flop leader doesn't have an ace. Maybe 50% of the time?
2. Callers have flush draws/no ace. 70%?
3. Evenyone will call your raise and check to you on the river regardless of whether they have an ace or not because they will be scared of a slowplayed set, strong ace, flush.
4. The 4th flush card doesn't come on the river.

The advantage to raising the turn is you won't get 3-bet very often and when you do it's an easy fold. Your getting great odds on a raise because of the middle players looking to hit a flush. (Getting odds on a raise doesn't make any sense I know but it sorta works). If you have odds to call, call a non-spade river (you are getting somewhere around 5-1), raising is better as it charges drawing hands with a card left.

Now I don't mind a fold. I'm just talking about a line I use in this situation sometimes. Gimme a bigger pot, a laggy BB and I'm more inclined to raise. One caller in between and I'm less inclined to raise.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]


Two reasons I considered calling the turn as opposed to raising for the free showdown:
1) I call the turn intending to fold to a river bet thinking BB won't bet again with less than an Ace. (Definitely not foolproof)
2) BB might check the river giving me a free showdown anyway. However, if UTG now bets I call and if CO bets I can fold.

Nice post, btw.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
good Commerce 9/18

UTG is loose and very aggressive
CO is loose and super passive
BB just sat down, it's his first hand

UTG limps, MP limps, CO limps, i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, SB/BB call, all call. (6 for 12 SB)

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Checked around. (6 for 6BB)

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB bets, UTG calls, MP folds, CO calls, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

River is J of something
Checked through.

BB shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], UTG shows his pair of 7's and CO mucks.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
good Commerce 9/18

UTG is loose and very aggressive
CO is loose and super passive
BB just sat down, it's his first hand

UTG limps, MP limps, CO limps, i raise K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button, SB/BB call, all call. (6 for 12 SB)

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Checked around. (6 for 6BB)

Turn is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB bets, UTG calls, MP folds, CO calls, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I woulda bet the flop actually.

they play this with $3 chips?? sounds fun

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]

Nice post, btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks!

Krishan

[cnfuzzd]

Im not entirely a fan of checking the flop. The problem with checking here is that by relinquishing control of the hand, you are inviting everyone and their brother to either bet or call the turn, since you dont have a hand, and, in the minds of bad players, whoever bets the turn is "obviously" trying to steal.

I think wieghing between the options really comes down to your plan on the turn. I think if you are planning to ever put a bet/call in on the turn, betting this flop is much better, as there is a possibility you fold someone out who may have called on the turn causing you to fold, and if you so desire you can check the turn and examine the final board before putting in anymore money.

was any of that coherent?

oh, and did winner have a set, or just pair a seven?

peace

john nickle