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  #1  
Old 04-14-2005, 09:09 AM
Lurshy Lurshy is offline
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Posts: 21
Default Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

In a 10+1 last night on PS.
Some history: Most of the table has been here since early in the tourney, except for some replacements that came in...
I had been playing solid, selectively aggressive poker. That is until like a complete bonehead overplayed AK and blow nearly my whole above average stack running into a set of 10's.

After getting knocked down to below 1k with I think 100/200 blinds, I played solid Laggy poker and got back to a 15K stack. The Big stack in this hand was the only other aggressive player at the table. He witnessed my rise, fall and rise, and was impressed with my play and luck. Tourney leader at the time was about 35K, avg Stack maybe 10K (could be wrong on this). We were at the stage in the tourney before the bubble (probably about 50 to go b4 the weak money). Short stacks were getting looser, pf play was fairly tight. This was the time to build a stack.

Bringing us to this hand....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter

SB (t15428)
BB (t3379)
Hero (t15377)
UTG+1 (t4862)
MP1 (t3704)
MP2 (t7128)
MP3 (t1907)
CO (t17433)
Button (t26140)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>,
Figured I would try an early position steal with my small PP
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t4837</font>,

Short stack raises all-in, I was fine calling that as he could be on AK - A9os, AXs, or any PP chance to build, limited downside.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t4837,
Uh OH the other aggressive player calls this. I thought if he were really strong he would raise. Why take a large PP 3 way? I only called just in case. Figured with the pot about 12K before my 3.6K call I was getting too good odds to pass up, especially with the implied odds if I hit. I called

<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t3637.

Flop: (t14686) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t12571 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t10515 (All-In). Couldn't have asked for anything better.

Turn: (t37772) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t37772) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t37772

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 5d 5h (three of a kind, fives).
UTG+1 has As Qc (one pair, aces).
CO has Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t35716. CO wins t2056. </font>

I was now tourney leader. I was now berrated by several people at the table including the 8 seat former table leader. Although I shouldn't have engaged, I tried explaining my reasoning which just made the berrating worse. The cutoff had nothing bad to say.

My problem in tourney's is not lack of selective aggression. It is not being to loose or too tight, It is not a lack of stealing or exploiting. I usually lose patience and fail to protect a big stack. I will eventually make a bad move/call or get trapped.

Is this hand an example of a LAG that should have blown a healthy stack again, or of solid poker? If the Cutoff reraised, I was gone that hand. I do make laydowns, but I do get stupid.
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  #2  
Old 04-14-2005, 09:15 AM
2005 2005 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 134
Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

The call was close, definitely not terrible. There is about 12k in the pot and it costs you 3600, you're getting 3.5-1 immediate, plus the 12k you get if you flop a set and win, it's very close, but the people at the table have no real case for berating you.

As an aside, making fun of someone's play, telling them it was bad, etc. could be the single stupidest thing any good player can do at a table.

Gavin
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2005, 09:53 AM
kuro kuro is offline
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Posts: 330
Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

You didn't deserve to be berated, but I don't like your play. You tried to steal under the gun and got played back at really hard (raise from utg+1 and a short stack all-in).

You're not closing the action and you're going to call off over a 1/4 of your stack and then fold if utg+1 makes an isolation raise. You're out of position. If you don't flop your set are you going to check raise all-in or push on low cards on the flop?

I think I'd just lay it because of all the above factors. If you had a bigger stack then I wouldn't mind calling hoping to hit a set or out play utg+1, but you don't.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:07 AM
daveymck daveymck is offline
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Posts: 388
Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

He is closing the action UTG+1 is all in. I think that I dont worry too much about what the people at the table think they can berate all they want I am not responding and am certainly not explaining my actions.

If he has been solid then you have to see his pure call as a sign of strength imho, he isnt raising to isolate against the all in player so he must like his hand cos he wants to play with you (you have raised utg if he was worried about a reraise he doesnt play here imho), I think calling but playing no set no bet post flop is the way to play it.
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  #5  
Old 04-14-2005, 10:19 AM
kuro kuro is offline
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Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

Ack, I misread and thought co was the one that was all-in on preflop. It makes it closer, but I still think I'd fold because unless you flop your set (13% or so of doing) you're going to either find yourself in a sticky situation trying to outplay co by pushing the flop or folding to his push.
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  #6  
Old 04-14-2005, 11:34 AM
IdiotSavant IdiotSavant is offline
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Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

The price is close to right for you to make the call. If you miss(more than likely) and a low flop comes, then you are really facing a difficult decision. Otherwise, it's a check/fold situation.

In addition, one must also consider tournament equity in this situation. If the preflop price is correct and you stack position will remain near average after the call vs. your stack jumping to the top ten and ensuring a good money finish, IMHO, the implied gain exceeds the loss.

Now, the CO player was trying to trap with his big pair and pay dearly for it. If he wanted to protect his hand, he should have pushed you out preflop. If he thought you had aces then he should have layed it down preflop.

In essence, he's blaming you for his greed than went awry.
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  #7  
Old 04-14-2005, 11:39 AM
Mez Mez is offline
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Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

Its kinda close, but still a fold. Calling 3,600 here, you need 8:1 (have to flop a set), pot is 11,000 so you're only getting 3:1, and possibly another 11K IF the CO will committ his chips when you flop a set. So you're just under 8:1 with large assumption on implied odds. Fold.
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  #8  
Old 04-14-2005, 12:45 PM
krishanleong krishanleong is offline
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Posts: 45
Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

I like this analysis. If the max you are going to get with implied odds is smaller than set odds, why continue? This ignores small stack considerations where reduced odds might be reasonable because you won't get a better shot.

Krishan
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  #9  
Old 04-14-2005, 01:11 PM
A_PLUS A_PLUS is offline
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Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

I dont think I like the call, but its not worth criticizing, b/c I'll admit I may be wrong. I think another important factor people havent mentioned is the equity you think you have with your 55 without a set.

CO call is scary. He made a BIG call with the original early positon raiser still to act. It seems like you thought highly of this players game so far. Here is what we know. He has a good hand. He is not afraid to see a flop. What hands would you make this play with? AA-QQ, AKs, AQs? Thats about it. I would reraise with a much wider range of hands than I would call with here.

Even if you extend the range, you arent going to have him playing 22 here.

So, two scenarios
1.) He has a higher pocket pair than you. If this is the case, you have close to 0 equity without a set. If you hit your set, you are only going to get the full reward if he has an overpair.

2.) He has two OCs. Now you have a good amount of equity without trips, but you are only going to get the rest of his money if you hit your set when he hits TP or better.

So the pot odds (including implied) are a little decieving.

That being said, I think it is a weak call after thinking about it for a few minutes. In the heat of battle, it isnt a weak enough call to ruin you. IMO
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  #10  
Old 04-14-2005, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: Did I deserve to be berated for this play?

[ QUOTE ]
Its kinda close, but still a fold. Calling 3,600 here, you need 8:1 (have to flop a set), pot is 11,000 so you're only getting 3:1, and possibly another 11K IF the CO will committ his chips when you flop a set. So you're just under 8:1 with large assumption on implied odds. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the given circumstances, I would also be inclined to fold too. But not for the reason that I am not getting the 8:1 odds. In a limit ring game, yes. But in a tourney situation, how often do you get the true odds of drawing to a set? I can't think of any significant one. Maybe in early stages when, for example: there is a pot of say, 500 and a scared player hitting a bottom pair or top pair makes a post oak bet of 50 to test whether his hand is good.
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