Strange call-down

[ddubois]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls?!

UTG is a real goober and hemorraging chips: 83 vpip, 5 pfr, 1.3 AF.

I didn't think a flop continuation bet would have much fold equity with 4 players in and 2 middling cards. However, once it comes back to me I wonder if a CR to clean up outs and thin to field down to goober and me is a good idea.

I gave UTG the anti-maniac-defense-system, but I think it may have been mis-applied because: 1) he's not aggressive enough to warrant this treatment, 2) his busted draws include some ace highs.

Also, a river call doesn't do much to fold out BB, and he will probably overcall a double-paired board with an ace.

[admiralfluff]

your read on BB is important in this situation. I would bet the flop. You know goober will bet if you check, and people will be much more likely to fold to your bet than to goober's. The threat of goober raising will also buy you some protection. Given the way you played it, I really think you need to fold the turn. It is not HU.

[NateDog]

Given that you checked the flop after a pfr, UTG obliged and bet, MP was nice enough to fold, how's about a c/r to try and get it HU? This of course only applies if you are intent on continuing.

Honestly, I'm confused by your play here, and it may be above my head, but can you give me the reasoning behind:

1) Your pfr from the SB after 2 limpers
2) Your lack of continuation bet/flop check-raise to try and regain control of the hand
3) Your river call (possible overcall) on a double paired 3 flush board?

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Given that you checked the flop after a pfr, UTG obliged and bet, MP was nice enough to fold, how's about a c/r to try and get it HU? This of course only applies if you are intent on continuing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, in retrospect, everything went down perfectly for a CR, and it seems way better than calling. I messed up.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Your pfr from the SB after 2 limpers

[/ QUOTE ]
I should have mentioned MP was 60 vpip. Their range is so wide enough KQ could dominate them 15+ ways. (BB was 51 vpip FYI.) I actually don't normally raise KQo out of the SB, but against limpers who could easily have K4, it seemed more attractive.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Your lack of continuation bet

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Well, like I said, the board had so much draw potential, I didn't expect any fold equity from leading out. But I am compelled to continue after the flop with two overs and two backdoor draws. I think checking and seeing the action is OK, rather than risking paying two bets needlessly.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Your river call (possible overcall) on a double paired 3 flush board?

[/ QUOTE ]
The three-flush didn't concern me. If UTG is betting a draw on the flop, it's probably not a backdoor draw. And I don't expect BB would check a flush on the river for fear of it being checked behind. The fact that it was double-paired meant to me in a bayesian sense, it had an increased unlikelihood of having hit my oppponents. I thought UTG would have a busted draw a signifigant percentage of the time, and that the nut-no-ace,no-pair had alot of showdown equity against one opponent here. But the presence of BB had me questioning my play and prompted this post. That BB had never raised made it seem unlikely he had a jack, and the double pairedness made is less likely he was calling down with a 4 or 8, but still, it seemed dubious at best.

[waffle]

if the bb will probably overcall any ace high hands or better, you have no business calling this river, too much has to go right for you to take down the pot and it won't happen often enough.

i'd just fold the turn with the bb still in.

[ddubois]

The danger of running good gets me shouting at my monitor: "I'm a superstar!". BB folds and UTG has QTo.

[Wynton]

PF raise is good provided you are willing to take some decisive action afterwards. And given your read on utg, you have to c/r this flop. I really see no point in just calling down, when you've got only K high and are facing two opponents.