Is folding ever an option here?

[Walter]

This is a 10/20 O/8 game online.

I have Ad 5d Jc Js
There are 5 players for 3 bets pre-flop. A guy between me and the raiser limp-reraises. I call one bet three times.

The flop comes 4h Qd 2d
Is it ever right to fold on this flop?

The turn makes the board 4h Qd 2d Kh. I now have the nut flush draw, the nut straight draw, and a wheel draw. Again, is it ever right to fold?

The river is the J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] . Should I bet? [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Aragorn]

>>I have Ad 5d Jc Js

It's a marginal hand to play at all.

>>The flop comes 4h Qd 2d. Is it ever right to fold on this flop?

There are at least 16 bets in the pot. You have the nut diamond draw for half the pot. It depends on how many bets you have to call cold and number of player still in, but you are probably in this hand until you make your hand or the board pairs.

>>The river is the J . Should I bet?

You have the nuts. Exactly what do you think someone else is holding where they are going to bet the pot for you? Of course you bet!

[Buzz]

"The flop comes 4h Qd 2d
Is it ever right to fold on this flop?"

Walter - No - not in a limit game of Omaha-8, considering there are fifteen small bets already in the pot. I don't think it's ever right to fold a nine-out, nut flush draw with this many bets already in the pot, regardless of the projected betting on this betting round. Think of your low draw as a bonus if a trey appears or if you luck out and end up scooping with the second nut low. In other words - the nine-out, nut flush draw alone is worth playing - regardless of the betting. At least that's how it seems when I stack the chips up in front of me, for various worst case betting scenarios.

In fact, if it was checked to me, I'd probably bet.

With this particular hand, after the betting on the first betting round, and after this particular flop, I would plan to see the next two cards.

"The turn makes the board 4h Qd 2d Kh. I now have the nut flush draw, the nut straight draw, and a wheel draw. Again, is it ever right to fold?"

Realistically, no. Theoretically, yes. Assume there was no betting on the second betting round, two opponents mucked their cards out of turn on the third betting round, and you somehow knew the betting would be capped before the river (on the third betting round) with only two opponents. In this case you wouldn't have odds to draw. There might also be other odd-ball, non-realistic situations where, in theory, you wouldn't have odds to draw on the third betting round.

However, with Ad-5d-Jc-Js after a flop of 4h-Qd-2d, I'd plan on seeing the next two cards. Then after a turn of Kh, with or without betting on the second betting round, I'd call a bet, or even a double bet, on the third betting round.

However, let me make it clear that I have not played on-line. Playing on-line simply has no appeal to me. (To each his own). Could I be facing a group of opponents on-line who each knew what cards the others held? Seems very possible to me. If I was taking an on-line bath, I'd seriously consider the risk of somehow being cheated. And in that case I might fold after this flop and exit the game. Couple of times in casinos something has seemed suspicious. I get up and leave when it happens, reporting any observable discrepency to the floorperson on my way out. I don't know what your recourse is on-line.

"The river is the Jd . Should I bet?"

Do you mean should you bet or go for the check raise? I don't know, because the answer would seem to possibly depend on your knowledge of your opponent(s). And since we don't have knowledge of the betting on the previous two betting rounds, what to do here is very "iffy." However, I would have to really strain to think of an instance where I would not bet-and-hope-for-a-raise rather than check-and-hope-for-a-bet-so-that-I-could-then-raise.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Walter]

the [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] indicates my last question was not serious.

thanks for the input. i am still trying to master the process of assigning value to 0/8 draws. does anyone have any shorthanded tricks for this purpose?

[rkiray]

IF you suspect something is wrong on-line you can send an e-mail reporting to the site. Someone can then look at the hands in question to see if collusion is at work. Some sites have refunded money when they caught people cheating. All the sites have banned cheaters. For years I avoided online poker because I was worried about cheating. Now I worry more about cheating when I'm playing live than online.

[Carl_William]

If I was one of your opponents in the hand in question and you folded after the turn -- that would be OK by me....

[iblucky4u2]

You did not ask about folding pre-flop - the one time it could be right to fold this hand. Realsitically, you are playing for the diamond flush, a J or broadway when you call pre-flop. The low requires a miracle flop.

Once the flop hits, you are in till the end with the nut flush draw. The remote 3 for a wheel is just a minor + to the hand. If I am running hot and/or my table image is favorable I would bet or maybe even raise with the flop. The turn is not a great card for you - two additional outs with black T's yet it removes a black J as a winner. I would probably check the turn, but would call any number of bets!

As for the river, I believe in O/8 that when you have the nuts, bet it. Don't go for the old fancy play syndrome. If you go for the check raise, it will probably get checked around and you will have to show your hand - giving your opponents a free look at what type of hands you play. Make them pay for the the info. If you bet and someone calls, you help your table image and set up future bluffs when the river makes a flush or high str8 with no low - one of the most profitable situations in O/8. I am amazed when pots get very large due to lots of nut low/flush draws on flop and turn and the river misses the low that a bet will win due to the frustration of all the low betters that missed. VERY PROFITABLE [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]