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#1
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How tight is too tight?
I am currently playing 1/2 Limit, and am about to start playing 2/4 when I hit $1200. I've been scouting the 2/4 and see that this is where things start to get tough. From what I've been reading ppl seem to play with a VPIP of 20 or more. Of the last 7500 hands I've averaged 14.5 and am afraid It will be too tight for the higher levels. On the other hand I have also been averaging 5BB/hr and have come to play the tight game really well.
I know poker isnt a game of simplistic stats, but of outplaying your opponents. But at what point does a tight player get eaten by the blinds? What is the bare theoretical set of hands that could beat the blinds/rake? Also to those winning players with 20+ VPIP what exactly are you playing? It seems like you would have to be playing suited connectors, suited aces, etc from all positions to get a vpip over 20. I have always found these to be big losers in limit. What should I expect at the higher limits? |
#2
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Re: How tight is too tight?
First...
Get Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky et al. Published January 2005... Which is aimed at $2/$4 and $3/$6... And recommends playing more hands than you do. Second... "How tight is too tight?" is an excellent question. I've been data mining Party $2/$4 for a month... As an interesting mathematical exercise... So I have 35,000 hands of very recent play. Most of the winning players are 15% to 22% VP$IP... And Pre-Flop Raise > 9%. There are virtually no consistent winners below 15% VP$IP... So at $2/$4 there is "too tight"... and it's below 15%. But there is no magic number. You can do well anywhere in the 16-22% range... Depending on your style. The most important thing it seems... Is how well you play post flop. My $0.02 rm+ [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] |
#3
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Re: How tight is too tight?
I think the 2+2 consensus would be that 20-22 percent is optimal for 1/2 and that moving up to 2/4 this drops to more like 17-18. However, the drop in VPIP for most players will come as a natural outgrowth of the more aggressive play at the higher level. More pots are raised early in the betting, more end up being contested two- and three-way rather than four- and five-way so a lot of hands you could play in LP or in the blinds at 1/2 become folds.
Your question about what is too tight is interesting. But I don't think it is the blinds that are the problem. I think at least some of the fish at 1/2 -- and maybe even a handful at .5/1 -- do recognize extremely tight play and save their wildest aggression for pots with the other loose players and players like me (VPIP 22-24) who play in enough hands to seem to blend into their world. That's just my unsystematic observation. Whether that's true or not at micro limits, there's little question that at 2/4 enough players would be noticing overly tight play and the result would consistently mean a bet or two less in too many pots when you make your best hands. |
#4
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Re: How tight is too tight?
I heard Sklansky is an incredible poker mind but he sucks at actually playing... I found that quite amusing... reminds me of a friend.
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#5
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Re: How tight is too tight?
[ QUOTE ]
I heard Sklansky is an incredible poker mind but he sucks at actually playing... I found that quite amusing... reminds me of a friend. [/ QUOTE ] hmm...troll. Thank you for your nonrelevent BS addition to the thread. |
#6
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Re: How tight is too tight?
[ QUOTE ]
I think the 2+2 consensus would be that 20-22 percent is optimal for 1/2 and that moving up to 2/4 this drops to more like 17-18. [/ QUOTE ] I certainly don't know if a vote was taken when I was out of the room, but I would vehemently argue that anything under 20 is being far too tight, well past games that are 2/4. When you start talking around 22, that's fine, but under 22 I think you're leaving money on the table especially with how the game has developed. However, if you are worried about your post flop play, absolutely, keep your preflop calls to the lowest percentage possible. You will still show a profit - just not as much if you played a few more hands (but if you play those few more hands and play them poorly, you will lose money, so it is a risk). Barron Vangor Toth www.BarronVangorToth.com |
#7
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Re: How tight is too tight?
[ QUOTE ]
But at what point does a tight player get eaten by the blinds? What is the bare theoretical set of hands that could beat the blinds/rake? [/ QUOTE ] the rake is much worse at 1/2 than it is at 2/4 so looking at it this way you should play tighter at 2/4, i think the difference is that the players at higher limits are going to start noticing your tightness more and not paying you off. also 2/4 is a little bit tighter than 1/2 so playing a litte looser can take down more pots. a lot of the hands you play should be skill dependent.. for instance a really good player can make a lot of hands that are -EV from early position for me +EV out of the same position. i think that the more skill you gain post flop the greater number of hands you can afford to play preflop. I also think that loosening up greatens your variance... I'd like to get a second opinion on this one though. |
#8
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Re: How tight is too tight?
[ QUOTE ]
the rake is much worse at 1/2 than it is at 2/4 so looking at it this way you should play tighter at 2/4, i think the difference is that the players at higher limits are going to start noticing your tightness more and not paying you off. also 2/4 is a little bit tighter than 1/2 so playing a litte looser can take down more pots. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not too sure about that. My agression factor so far at the 1/2 tables is over 5. I've always felt like ppl equate your preflop play with how tight/agressive you are. They automatically assume that because you play very few hands you are a weak player. But I'm not, I am very aggresive post flop and I find ppl calling me to the river when I do have a hand. I like my style, and I think I will stick with it until things start going bad. As for SSH, I've read it. I have no problem with loose games. I guess I am just wondering what types of playes you are going to make at the higher levels. Are you going to call a raise with Axs just because you can 'outplay' your opponent? I find limit is mostly about showing down the best hand. |
#9
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Re: How tight is too tight?
I think most people would say that an ag factor of 5 is way too high. It sounds like you avoid quite a few marginal situations that are long-term +EV and possibly that your bets and raises are met with too many folds and simple call downs.
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#10
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Re: How tight is too tight?
Can you give me an example of some marginal +EV plays that you have found that I might be missing?
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