A9s vs. turn screwplay

[Nick C]

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Anyways, I don't think there is bs involved here very often.

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One of the first notes I ever made for a player at 5/10 was, "Turn screwplay semibluff." I wasn't involved in the hand that inspired the note, but watching it got me thinking, "Well, I guess this isn't 3/6 anymore."

However, since then the sense I've been getting is that the screwplay usually indicates a strong made hand. Often it seems like sort of a delayed slowplay, along these lines: Villain raises (or 3-bets) preflop and flops top set. Villain bets flop to avoid a highly suspicious flop check and gets a caller or two. Encouraged by this result, Villain then goes for the checkraise on the turn. (I guess more frequently Villain will go for the turn checkraise after getting raised on the flop, but I've also been seeing the screwplay sequence I just described.)

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The problem with this is when the turn does get checked through. It has happened to me a few times and it's irritating when you miss the bets or get outdrawn. Heads up against certain super aggros this line works like a charm the first few times. Then they catch on and when you try it a few hours later your plans get foiled.

And I pretty much have a good, made hand all the time I take this line. But by default in this type of situatino with a hand I'm just threebetting the flop and leading the turn, I feel that it's not worth the risk of losing lots of BB just to possibly with 0.5BB more

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Versus a flop raise, it is disappointing to go for a checkraise only to discover that Villain was raising for a free card or cheap showdown.

Versus a call, there are times when the call means Villain doesn't like his hand a whole lot (or is drawing) and will check behind on the turn. Then there are those times when Villain is planning to pop the turn. We may or may not welcome this turn raise, depending on how strong our hand is, but there are times when a checkraise "works" but a bet/3-bet line would have worked even better.

[hobbsmann]

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If OP hero were calling with a flush draw on this board, and he does check through the turn then he just paid 0.5BB to see two cards. Yes, this check by villain is often legit weakness, but on this board with draws out there, I'm inclined to bet again on the turn if I have top pair here, instead of go for a screwplay. My check does not guarantee villain will bet. In my opinion a screwplay is better used on a board with less draws.

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I agree, when deciding whether or not to screwplay the texture of the board is VERY important.

[private joker]

I got screwplayed in that AKo hand I posted earlier, at the Bike 8/16. The difference is he capped my flop 3-bet and then screwplayed me. It was legitimate strength.

[Nick C]

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I got screwplayed in that AKo hand I posted earlier, at the Bike 8/16. The difference is he capped my flop 3-bet and then screwplayed me. It was legitimate strength.

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How often do you think a 5/10 unknown is pulling a screwplay bluff in the hand I posted?

[private joker]

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How often do you think a 5/10 unknown is pulling a screwplay bluff in the hand I posted?

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I'd estimate 10% of the time. IOW, most of the time it's legit. In your hand, it didn't really matter if it was legit or not -- you had a draw to the nuts, so you were never folding the turn. The river is a minor question, since you do have a pair and can thus beat a bluff, but I don't think your hand is good often enough to make a river call profitable.

The problem comes when you have a hand like KJ, flop Jxx, and get screwplayed. Do you fold or call down?

EDIT: My original guess was a bit high. The more I think about it, whenever I've called these down I've been shown a monster a vast majority of the time.

[Nick C]

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The problem comes when you have a hand like KJ, flop Jxx, and get screwplayed. Do you fold or call down?

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Lately, I would call down and get shown a set of one of the x's from the flop. Or I would fold and wonder if I was letting myself be pushed around.

I've been running into a lot of big hands and power plays that represent big hands recently. It's making me see monsters, and every time I call down, it seems like a monster is in fact what my opponent actually has.

For variety, my opponent has occasionally been semibluff-raising or semibluff-checkraising the turn and then catching on the river.

Running bad sucks.

Okay, I'm done whining now.

[gh9801]

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I got screwplayed in that AKo hand I posted earlier, at the Bike 8/16. The difference is he capped my flop 3-bet and then screwplayed me. It was legitimate strength.

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How often do you think a 5/10 unknown is pulling a screwplay bluff in the hand I posted?

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Depends on the unknown, maniacs quite often. As for TAGs very rarely, I'd guess 2% and weak players more like 0%.

[Nick C]

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I got screwplayed in that AKo hand I posted earlier, at the Bike 8/16. The difference is he capped my flop 3-bet and then screwplayed me. It was legitimate strength.

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How often do you think a 5/10 unknown is pulling a screwplay bluff in the hand I posted?

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Depends on the unknown, maniacs quite often. As for TAGs very rarely, I'd guess 2% and weak players more like 0%.

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I don't have many hands on Villain, and most of the ones I do have are from 3/6. But, before I started this thread, I went through the five (or so) hands Villain has shown down while I was at the table.

And I ran across one whiffed screwplay attempt. He had turned quads.

[shant]

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I guess I'll go against the grain here and say that I raise your starting hand preflop.

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Our grain goes the same direction.

[Ianco15]

I love the bet flop, cr turn play. I often set up poor opponents who are somewhat aggressive for this play by making a continuation bet on the flop and check/folding the turn. When I end up hu with the same opponent in a different hand, I will bet the flop and check/raise the turn.