Why SNGs have MORE variance than ring games

[45suited]

Okay, sorry if I took you the wrong way.

I guess that my situation is the opposite of yours. I started playing poker on SNGs. I had very good success, but I felt that my game was one dimensional.

I started playing ring games and I did have the fear that it would hurt my SNG game for the reasons that you mentioned. But I found that it helped out alot. Sure there are different considerations, but still, most low level guys suck so bad post flop that if you can improve your understanding of post flop play, you're really helping yourself out alot.

As for a heads-up game, I'll have to get a Pokerstars account, which I have been planning on doing so that I can participte in some of these forum games.

Anyway, I hate flame wars, so let's just move on. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

16 table ring games?

Limit or NL?

What stakes?

Thanks

[raptor517]

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Hehe, I think my long term ROI in 1ks will even out to about 10%, and I'm pretty sure thats worth my time.

I have been posting a bit, just not in these parts... Except for a few of Unarmed's posts here and there. Ill be at duke in about 2 weeks, if you want to meet up and get drunk or play 1-1 uncapped NL and get stacked off for 300bb, PM me [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

-Jason

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im down, set it up punk [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] holla

[citanul]

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but to say that improving one's post flop play will not help in SNGs is obviously wrong as there is still SOME post flop play in SNGs.

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Not only did I not say otherwise, but I don't believe anyone previously in this thread was talking about playing NL ring as a method to improve your SNG play. I believe that NL ring was brough up strictly as an alternative to playing SNGs in this thread. There are other threads about playing other games to improve your SNG play. This is not one of them.

citanul

[microbet]

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At this point I have no long term concerns, only short term ones, but it is not likely that I am learning anything playing 16 games at a time.

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People mention learning and multitabling once in a while, so not just to you, but I think you can learn an awful lot, very quickly playing 16 tables, just not necessarily while you are in the game.

[NiR]

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For people on the 11s and 22s who can only muster a 5-10% ROI, I think that there is another reason why they might want to consider ring games.

The 11s and 22s are so easily crushable (20% or more) that if you are at 5-10%, there must be large holes in your game. If some of these guys would play 25 NL for a while, their understanding of poker in general and post flop play in particular would improve greatly. This could only help their SNG game in the long run.

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i actually agree with this.i have a preety good roi in the 22's of 22% (lol) and itm 42%, and i have been told that it is partly because of my NL background. i think playing NL cash is a great way to improve your game and learn better post flop play which alot of sng players lack.

[NiR]

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For people on the 11s and 22s who can only muster a 5-10% ROI, I think that there is another reason why they might want to consider ring games.

The 11s and 22s are so easily crushable (20% or more) that if you are at 5-10%, there must be large holes in your game. If some of these guys would play 25 NL for a while, their understanding of poker in general and post flop play in particular would improve greatly. This could only help their SNG game in the long run.

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I don't think nutpeddling 25NL will help many. The optimal strategy for those games is to advertise insanely for the first couple of orbits then wait for big hands. This won't work in SNGs because you can't rebuy. Play starts being more realistic at NL100 and is fairly genuine at NL200. No tricky LAGs but everyone is typically a solid player.

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yes atleast multitable the 100's i should have added.

[NiR]

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My 2 cents:

If we have a player who plays well enough to beat both Sng's and limit ring for an average win rate then he "should" have lower variance per SnG, than ring.

I'll assume 1/2 ring is the same skill level as the $11s.

At the ring tables, the player will experience a downswing of 300BB or $600.00

At the Sng's, the player will experience a downswing of 30 Buyins or $330.00

So that means less variance at the SnGs. I think Aleo used different statistics to come up with his conclusions (I saw lots of SD numbers in there [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]) but I dont think they are all that relevent.

If I deposit $400.00 to my account, Id want to play SnGs.

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11's are in my opinion equavalent to 25's and 22's are equavalent to 50's in skill wise. but profit i believe in sngs are more compared to its counterpart if your beating it at 16%+

[raptor517]

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For people on the 11s and 22s who can only muster a 5-10% ROI, I think that there is another reason why they might want to consider ring games.

The 11s and 22s are so easily crushable (20% or more) that if you are at 5-10%, there must be large holes in your game. If some of these guys would play 25 NL for a while, their understanding of poker in general and post flop play in particular would improve greatly. This could only help their SNG game in the long run.

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I don't think nutpeddling 25NL will help many. The optimal strategy for those games is to advertise insanely for the first couple of orbits then wait for big hands. This won't work in SNGs because you can't rebuy. Play starts being more realistic at NL100 and is fairly genuine at NL200. No tricky LAGs but everyone is typically a solid player.

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yes atleast multitable the 100's i should have added.

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the NL200 and NL400 tables are a joke. pot half the hands preflop, if theres only 2 people left on the flop, 2/3 pot EVERY flop. its almost like cheating. holla

[Izverg04]

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Game A (Sample size 1175 events)

$/event $0.95
SD$/event $17.90
Bankroll required for .5% ROR = $1388
Multitable earn = $23.69/hr

Game B (Sample size = 930 events)
$/event = $6.83
SD$/event = $83.41
Bankroll required for 0.5% ROR = $2699.18
Multitable earn = $24.24/hr


Both of these allow me to make my weekly nut (if I play the required number of hours). If my concerns are (in order):

Lowest ROR
Smaller bankroll swings
Profitability

Which game should I play?

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Utility models provide us with a notion of the "Certainty Equivalent", a risk-adjusted value of a bet. Blackjack players, who tend to be a more mathematically inclined bunch then poker players, know all about it:

http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/kelly/kellyfaq.htm

Any rational gambler makes decisions to maximize CE or CE/hr, not EV or EV/hr.

When all possible payoffs of a gamble are small compared to your bankroll (applies to any poker game except for MTTs or jackpot games), CE=EV-Var/2R, where the second term is the cost of variance. R can be interpreted as a Kelly bankroll -- you can use R=1/3 or 1/4 bankroll. R is the single scalar parameter that describes your current risk tolerance.

Guessing that your R is on the order of $1000, I get:

Game A: CE/hr=$20/hr
Game B: CE/hr=$12/hr