fish bait

[Guruman]

I've been working on a little play that seems to have great potential in the right situation. Here's how it works:

conditions:
1)no limit game or tourney
2)semi-cognizant opposition
3)a general mix of tight and semi-aggressive opponents
4)early position - probably from the blinds
5)only to be tried on the flop or turn
6)3-5 opponents left in the hand

I sit in these kind of games often enough. While my opponents are not poker masters by any means, they are at least concious and trying to win. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Here's the play:

1)make a hand on the flop [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
2)make the minimum bet into the field

-possible outcomes-

a)the bet gets called around [semi-bad]
b)the bet gets raised [very good]
c)the bet clears out all but one or two opponents [good]
d)the bet wins the pot [about as good as that was going to get anyway]

if A or C occurs, then I can put a 2/3 or pot sized bet in on a non-scare card on the next street and try to pick up the pot. If a scare card falls, then I can shrink up my bet a bit or even check and re-evaluate whether or not my set or two pair is beat here.

If B occurs then I can spring the trap and re-raise.

-Here's the purpose of even trying this in the first place:

if I do manage to spring the trap on someone, then my minimum bets into the field will immediately be viewed in a different light. Now my opponents will suspect a trap, and will be more apt to slow down a little when thinking of re-raising that little flop bet when it comes to them. This opens up a few more doors for me:

Primarily, I can now make this play with a strong drawing hand on the flop. Since my opponents should suspect a stronger than normal hand in this spot now,
a)they will be less apt to re-raise - allowing me to get to the next card cheaply
b)they will be more likely to only re-raise with made hands - allowing me to do math or just drop depending on the situation
c)they may fold more hands then they would have previously - allowing me a cheaper price to attempt to pick up the pot.

I obviously wouldn't try to bait the fish with a drawing hand until I had sprung the trap with a made hand already, and I wouldn't try it against non-thinking opponents. Also, I get the feeling that this would work better live than online.

Also, i fully recognize that it is a theoretical mistake to give drawing hands odds when I have a made hand, but I think this can be made up for in a couple of ways: 1)just because I'm giving a drawing hand odds doesn't mean my opponents will - remember, I'm betting into a field of potential re-raisers and 2)this play is designed to give my drawing hands odds later on.

thoughts? criticizms? beratements?

[AaronBrown]

This is simmilar to check-raising and other slow-play tactics, it has the same basic analysis. The straightforward play with a made hand is to raise. Are you suggesting this tactic as an alternative to a raise, or as an alternative to checking?

I agree with your basic analysis. The minimum bet as opposed to a check makes (a) more likely but less bad, (b) less likely but more good. It also makes (c) and (d) more likely. Depending on the exact situation, this could be better or worse.

Analyzed as a trap, this gives you a more expensive but also stronger protection for drawing hands than a check raise.

My feeling is you want to use all possible weapons. Every bet you make should be open to at least two interpretation by your opponents. Thus if you only check or raise with stong hands, you give away information. So you need a minimum-bet semi-slow play.

Another thing I like about this play is it misrepresents the type of your hand. A straightforward player makes a minimum bet in early position with a medium-strong hand, or a very good drawing hand. So your opponents expect face cards, or a hand with multiple straight and flush possibilities, or maybe Ace/medium card with a flush possibility. If you do this with three nines, they're going to misread the turn and river cards, allowing you to stay in cheap when the odds are against you and pump up the pot when the odds are for you. Then, when your next minimum bet is a straightforward one, they'll misread you again.

I forget, why aren't we all rich?

[TomCollins]

Try doing this when I have a draw and you are going to win a small pot or lose a big one.

[willthethrill]

it makes sense and could work a lot. I thought of one situation where it could get you in trouble though. On your first try when you are setting the trap it could give your opponent another card for cheap and he could make his drawing hand. Then when you raise him again as your trap, he could come over the top of you with the better hand and make you lose a lot of chips and maybe even mess up your overall scheme.

[Guruman]

Aaron: [ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting this tactic as an alternative to a raise, or as an alternative to checking?

[/ QUOTE ] I'm suggesting this as an alternative to check/raising with a made hand and as an alternative to check/folding or check/calling with a drawing hand. Again, I can only try this from early position.

[ QUOTE ]
My feeling is you want to use all possible weapons. Every bet you make should be open to at least two interpretation by your opponents. Thus if you only check or raise with stong hands, you give away information. So you need a minimum-bet semi-slow play.

[/ QUOTE ] yup, this is exactly the point of this play. This play also has a couple of happy side-effects when it misses. If I make the minimum bet and it gets called around, the pot may have as much as doubled in size. This means that it takes a larger turn bet to get me off of a drawing hand, and when I have a made hand it means that I can get a weaker hand to call an even bigger bet than the times when I miss a check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing I like about this play is it misrepresents the type of your hand. A straightforward player makes a minimum bet in early position with a medium-strong hand, or a very good drawing hand. So your opponents expect face cards, or a hand with multiple straight and flush possibilities, or maybe Ace/medium card with a flush possibility. If you do this with three nines, they're going to misread the turn and river cards, allowing you to stay in cheap when the odds are against you and pump up the pot when the odds are for you. Then, when your next minimum bet is a straightforward one, they'll misread you again.

[/ QUOTE ] I think the main advantage to this type of play is that it forces my opponents to define their hands while I have to give away essentially nothing. If I make the minimum bet into you and you have a set, you're just going to raise to isolate, and I can get away if I want. It should also slow my opponents medium hands way down since they will be reluctant to re-raise with several left to act. Tighter players will fold here.

Tom and Will:
[ QUOTE ]

Try doing this when I have a draw and you are going to win a small pot or lose a big one.

[/ QUOTE ]
and
[ QUOTE ]
On your first try when you are setting the trap it could give your opponent another card for cheap and he could make his drawing hand. Then when you raise him again as your trap, he could come over the top of you with the better hand and make you lose a lot of chips and maybe even mess up your overall scheme.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the key to this play is to have all of the previously mentioned conditions in place before attempting it. If I make a set on the flop and my fish bait gets called through, then I'm getting very focused on what the next card is. If it completes a draw, then I swear under my breath and slow down a bit to see where I stand. If it doesn't (and most of the time it wont) then I continue as planned.

If we were both on the same draw, then I'll have to play poker with you on 4th and 5th street to see who wins this one. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Guruman]

help me with another perspective here:

assume you've seen me make this play several times in a tourney with made sets and with strong draws.

blinds are 100 and 200 with everyone having around $1500 in chips

You hold are on the button and call after two limpers. The limpers are 1)a loose passive player and 2)a straightforward aggressive player who sees too many flops. I complete and a tight passive player checks from the BB.

scenario

1)you hold T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I make the minimum bet and get called by the tight passive BB and the lag right before you. what's your play?

2)you hold 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop comes T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I make the minimum bet and it folds to you. what's your play?

3)you hold AT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and the flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] I bet the minimum and get called by the tight passive BB. loose passive and lag fold to you. what's you play?

4)you hold JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and thel flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I make the minimum bet and the tight passive and loose passive both fold. Loose aggressive raises $400. what's your play?

5)overall, what's your strategy against this type of play with non-nutz hands?

[AaronBrown]

The only hand I like here is 4, the rest I fold. I'm pretty sure you're not drawing for a flush, that's too many spades (and if you are, neither of us is likely to make it, so it doesn't matter anyway). You could be drawing for a low straight, but the set or A's and 5's or 6's is more likely. The loose aggressive is probably holding A's and a high card or a high pair, maybe even three Aces. With a bit of luck, I could triple my stake. I call or raise.

I don't think your deception makes much difference on these hands. For one thing, there are other players to worry about. I'm only winning this pot with a good hand, I'm not staying in hoping you've got a draw and don't hit it.

[sully4321]

i use this play very often... my philosophy is that if 5 people call a bet of $1, for example, thats more than the POSSIBLE 1 person who would call a $4 bet... aka more money for you

[sexypanda]

Ok, I'm going to be honest with you. I love people who make this move for the following reasons:

You give me HUGE HUGE implied odds to draw to random hands, like gutshots, bottom pair, etc.

I will raise you the first time I have an actual made hand, and I will figure out your little minbet tactic. I then can figure out when you're likely on a draw and raise then with anything, giving you incorrect odds and force you to fold.

Because of these two things, I'd probably like to see as many flops as possible against you in position, knowing I could easily pull a bluff raise, or see a real cheap turn.

[guyincognito210]

too fancy for me. i would much rather make a good sized normal bet and hope someone made a second best hand and stays with me the whole way increasing bets every street. I can't let people draw to crap for cheap. into a field of four soemone is dawing for way to cheap with crap. and one of them is gonna beat you. If it folds around to me i never complain. Maybe i missed a situatuion in this scenario but i hate giving people odds to beat me unnecarily.