Been thinking about free showdown raises

[Stefan_K]

I would call down, but if i raised and he called, i dont think i whant the river to be free i would bet if checked to

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this is a great time to raise for a free showdown at all.

A raise for a free showdown, as I understand it, entails raising with a marginal hand that you may think is the best but don't want to be forced into folding because of a scary river card. I am really sure that it requires that you be heads up.

It just seems here that you are clearly beat but don't want to fold, a leak that I am also trying to correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dislike the play as well as your reasoning.
Though there are exceptions, you'd ideally like to have a lack of outs with the opportunity to fold a better hand. Here we have outs and no chance to fold a better hand. It doesn't matter if it's not HU.
I don't think Kevin McHale would approve of this.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
So here's the situation. You're playing against your typical loose passive guy. He limps, you raise. Flop is good. You hit TPTK or TPGK. Now he bets/3-bets you. You know your toast, but you have outs, and you plan on making a crappy river call UI because you don't have much history on the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, are you intentionally trying to sound like Hubie Brown here? If so it's brilliant. The FSP has no upside though.

[kidcolin]

You replied to McGahee.. were you directing your post at him or me? I'm confused.

And no, I didn't intend to sound like Hubie, but getting that reference is an honor anyhow, and now I think all the hands post I start will be in Hubie format.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Getting 3bet on this turn sure sucks balls, as does a river donk. If I can be guaranteed to only pay two bets to get to showdown, I'm going to take it in this situation. In addition, part of your reasoning seems to be that you can fire again if you hit a straight on the river. So you're hoping to put two bets in when behind and one bet in when you're ahead? Backwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

[kidcolin]

We don't think mr. passivity checks a river 4 straight board?

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
We don't think mr. passivity checks a river 4 straight board?

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're really, really trying to get bets out of him when you hit the straight, but that's why that part of the reasoning sucks. Most of the time you won't suck out on him, and will just end up putting in two bets when behind. Its not an argument between two bets in on the turn and and one with your rivered straight versus one on the turn and two with your rivered straight, its putting in two - and opening the door for more - when you're almost positive you're behind and won't ever fold a better hand (or any decent hand, really).

[kidcolin]

I agree if I fear being 3-bet. I really don't. This guy was the passive of all passives. I want to see a showdown for 2 bets. A raise accomplishes that 95-99%, and gets an extra bet from MP when he misses the river. I can safely fold a river donk if I don't improve, in case that happens.

Regardless, you might be right, but I think this merits discussion and goes beyond just "you're behind why raise?" I'm at work now, but maybe when I get home I'll do some math on the issue.

[RunDownHouse]

Maybe you need to be more specific about your read. He's a 50VPIP with aggro just under 1, and he bet/3bet you on the flop and led the turn. He doesn't look the most passive of fish so far.

In talking about getting an extra bet from MP, it sounds like you're talking about this raise being for value, since MP will never call a river bet with a busted draw. While its true that having an overlay is nice, it doesn't make up for the fact that you're behind way too often, with few outs. Especially if you figure MP's most likely draw is a flush, meaning you have a bare 3 outs to your best draw.

Also, if your read is that you're behind almost always, you need to find ways to put the least money in, not get the most out of a drawing MP. In an earlier post you worried that the opponent would check a four-straight river. Presumably he would also check a flush river, which is great for you if MP isn't drawing but has some weak made hand. The more rivers the opponent checks, the more you should be inclined to simply call the turn when you're so sure you're behind.

[kidcolin]

Good point about him checking a diamond, and looking for a river check in general.