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#11
06-27-2005, 02:59 PM
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Re: Flush draw and overcard, check and call flop?
[ QUOTE ]
No one has yet mentioned that playing draws aggressively is a good way to keep your opponents from labeling you as weak-tight. [/ QUOTE ] It also is a convenient way to mix up your play. I bet at this flop (or one where the J is replace with an A). I don't bet at a similar flop that's more coordinated or has a K in it or has been raised PF. Not that I think there's that much EV difference, it's just a convenient way to help disguise my hand. 
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#12
06-27-2005, 03:08 PM
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Re: Flush draw and overcard, check and call flop?
[ QUOTE ]
It also is a convenient way to mix up your play. I bet at this flop (or one where the J is replace with an A). I don't bet at a similar flop that's more coordinated or has a K in it or has been raised PF. Not that I think there's that much EV difference, it's just a convenient way to help disguise my hand. [/ QUOTE ] I'm less inclined the lead a flop like this if the J was replaced with an A. I feel at SS a lot of donks will limp an Axo, but are going to fold Jxo, so the chance that the above flop replaced with an A hits somebody is greater and thus you are less likely to take down the pot with a single bet.
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#13
06-27-2005, 03:33 PM
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Re: Flush draw and overcard, check and call flop?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm less inclined the lead a flop like this if the J was replaced with an A. I feel at SS a lot of donks will limp an Axo, but are going to fold Jxo, so the chance that the above flop replaced with an A hits somebody is greater and thus you are less likely to take down the pot with a single bet. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, so here are my counterthoughts: If I had to choose between a J-high flop and an A-high flop with 3 limpers in the pot with me, I'd rather bet at the A-high. With the J-high flop, I'm going to get people who will call with as little as a single overcard and a backdoor draw or two. With the A-high flop, I have an excellent scare card and people are less inclined to call without an A in their hand. There's another important factor here that has to do with the "It's good enough to call then you might as well bet" saying. I'm not a fan of that particular saying but there's a situation that's related that you need to be able to recognize - places where stronger hands will bet but not raise. In those situations, you should almost always bet if your hand is worth a call. With an A-high flop, an Ax hand is virtually always going to bet at the flop and you're going to put in a bet anyway. But when nobody has an A, it's going to get checked through and you'll miss an excellent opportunity to steal the pot.
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#14
06-27-2005, 03:53 PM
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Re: Flush draw and overcard, check and call flop?
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so here are my counterthoughts: If I had to choose between a J-high flop and an A-high flop with 3 limpers in the pot with me, I'd rather bet at the A-high. With the J-high flop, I'm going to get people who will call with as little as a single overcard and a backdoor draw or two. With the A-high flop, I have an excellent scare card and people are less inclined to call without an A in their hand. [/ QUOTE ] So this is a point that I was thinking about when I typed up my above response. I agree that on an A high flop you have a better chance of taking down the pot by betting out if people don't hold an ace, but there is also a higher percent chance that one of the limpers is holding an ace compared to a J. Also on an A high flop if you do get called you've got to think that your K outs are no longer good and thus the value of your hand is further decreased. Say you take the exact same lines in both the J and A high flops (ie. bet out into 3 limpers) I'm really not sure which situation you will win a higher percentage of the time. On one hand, people are probably going to call more often on the flop with mediocre hands in the J high situation, but you have more equity there because of your K outs and by showing strength on both the flop and turn you'll get people to fold a wide range of non-J holdings by the turn a fair amount. In the case of the A high flop, you will probably get more folds on the flop, but when you do get called you probably have less equity and seemingly have less of a chance of winning the pot if it gets past the flop (I think I buy your argument of people being scared of aces). It would be interesting if somebody could quantify the relative value of leading into 3 limpers in these two situations.
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