A Question for Christians

[carlo]

Came in too late on this but gathered there's a dog fight in many of the replies.



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Suppose we take George's brain and put it in Harry's body; and Harry's brain and put it in George's body.

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Having a brain transplant is(in a sense) no different than having a heart transplant. The problem with the questions is that underlying them is the fact that the poster and others have a difficult time coming to a perception(understanding,cognition,etc.) of the soul-spiritual being of man. In this type of linear -atheistic thinking(contradiction in terms) we would be forced to "weigh the soul".

A perception of the soul-spiritual being of man may help.

In normal everday parlance one may say " I walk through the door way".

An exact statement would be "I carry my body through the door way".[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

carlo

[bobman0330]

It seems quite obvious to me that no one knows. I can imagine a number of different sensible possibilities, but there's no evidence for one over another. It seems likely that to whatever extent George is still George, he will have George's soul. If you splice together parts of George's and Harry's brains, maybe there'll be two souls vying for control. Maybe one or both souls will become detached from the bodies and move on to the afterlife. Who knows?

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Having a brain transplant is(in a sense) no different than having a heart transplant.

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... only that having a heart transplant wouldn't change your memories, your emotions/feelings, your knowledge/intelligence, or your personality/temperment; but having a brain transplant would change all of those things. And what am "I", if not those things. In fact, a lot of religions would call those things, the "soul". People have heart transplants all the time... and they seem to be the same person. But, a victim of a serious stroke, or Alzheimer's disease, has a different brain, and doesn't seem to be quite the same person as before.

[carlo]

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only that having a heart transplant wouldn't change your memories, your emotions/feelings, your knowledge/intelligence, or your personality/temperment; but having a brain transplant would change all of those things.

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It's my point. The insertion of thought,feeling and will impulses in the brain is a recent episode in the history of man. That thinking is associated with the nervous system is self evident but certainly not feelings nor will. A perspective of at least 19th century philosophers saw the SOUL qualities of man as thinking, feeling and willing. To lay all of these qualities and insert them into the brain is a result of scientific materialism which cannot do other than weigh the soul.

If there is truly only the physical then one shouldn't say "I Think" but that "My Brain Thinks".

Thinking, feeling and willing are all non weighable and live in a supersensible world where the soul-spiritual being of man resides. While on earth there is no doubt that man uses the physical body and thereupon a damaged brain will certainly diminish the world of thought either partially or in entirety.

Another picture of one's soul spiritual being which is the real "YOU" is that these supersensible/spiritual enteties of man use the nervous system as a "reflector" of thoughts. It is difficult for present day man to conceive that his highest being is using the physical body and his earth-bound experiences (including the experiencing of the body) are gathered by the soul which is non physical.

I don't know of any religion which does not relate to a soul/spiritual aspect of man. A Catholic philosopher at Notre Dame can certainly have questions posed by one at Georgetown as to the nature of the soul but clear thinking will certainly not end up calling the soul physical and they would realize this. Of course some do fall into the materialistic trap.

A little history may clarify the difficulty. During the time of Christ and prior it was common understanding in the ancient world that man consisted of Body,Soul and Spirit. At a Catholic Church Synod of 869(?) AD it was decided that man now consisted of Body and Soul(which contained some attributes of Spirit). This progressed into the understanding of the present day. Our scientific time has progressed to the idea that there is NO Soul, No Spirit but ONLY BODY. That it reaches into our present thinking is evident in this post as people have difficulty conceiving of anything other than our physical nature.

LOng winded, I know, and the obvious question is why one does not experience this supersensible world directly as is the physical. The answer is that mankind will, but of course this takes time and in this lies the evolution of man. A reading of the Revelation of John gives a picture of the end of mankind's education in which he progresses to an individual free spirit among other spirits.

None of this can be easily approached until one sees oneself as a soul/spiritual being entering this earthly body and in this the study of the reembodiment of the spirit(reincarnation) is the necessary first step.

carlo

[Lestat]

Very interesting carlo! I see what you're saying...

Would you agree that the soul must be confined to the physical body (at least until one dies)? If so, what exactly is confining it?

I never supposed that the soul was embodied in any physical organ per se, but something must keep it in place otherwise, what would stop it from drifting from person to person (or realm to realm?). It is easier for me to conceive of the soul being released from our bodies upon death, than to conceive how it gets implanted into a body in the first place. Thus, the reason for the post. At what point does the soul leave the physical body? At what point does the recognize itself and know that George's body is not "me", his heart is not "me", and (if you truly believe in the existence of souls then, my own brain is not "me"?

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

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The insertion of thought,feeling and will impulses in the brain is a recent episode in the history of man.

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Are you talking about how scientists have caused people to think, feel, or "will", by stimulating certain parts of the brain? I don't think you are, because that would support my position. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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That thinking is associated with the nervous system is self evident but certainly not feelings nor will.

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Thinking is associated with the brain (which is part of the nervous system). You say that is self-evident (I'm not sure it is, but science supports it, so it is definitely evident). However, you don't think feelings are too? Really? That's... interesting. There has been a lot of study done to show that feelings are associated with brain activity. That's how we have medicine for depression. And, that's how drugs affect our feelings -- by inhibiting or stimulating certain parts of the brain.

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If there is truly only the physical then one shouldn't say "I Think" but that "My Brain Thinks".

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If you say "My Brain", that infers an "I". "I" is just a word. We can use it however we want. It's "self-evident" that "I exist". What "I" is, is not so self-evident, but whatever it is (a soul, or an emergent property of higher-brain activity), we can still call it "I".

[carlo]

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Would you agree that the soul must be confined to the physical body (at least until one dies)? If so, what exactly is confining it?

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Consider that the soul/spirit is the prime agent in this matter-it lives in the physical body and works out its destiny in a life and returns to its home, the world of the spirit.

Sleep may help as for good reason it has been called the "little death". To our everyday thinking it is a great mystery for how much is known about sleep? Modern scientists use electrodes and offer REM,etc. but this goes no furthur than offering a material understanding via another materiality.

In sleep our soul/spiritual being leaves the body and what you see sleeping on a bed are the physical body and what could be called the formative force body which contains our memories and is expressed in pictures. Upon sleep consciousness changes and the individual finds himself in the "Bosom of the Godhead" for want of a better term. You are now outside your physical/formative force body which is a change of consciousness. In this "bosom" one finds the angelic beings who have since the beginning of time offered sacrifice in order to bring the human divine spirits to their destiny. Christianity and other religions have a rich history of names for these beings and they are real and aid in sleep and in death. You really are a "Child of God".

Went a little over the edge on this one but let it be known that you are cared for in sleep and in death.

carlo

[carlo]

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Are you talking about how scientists have caused people to think, feel, or "will", by stimulating certain parts of the brain? I don't think you are, because that would support my position.

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No, scientific thinking which offers an objectivity unparalled was and is necessary for the progression of mankind. You could say that mankind,via materialistic science, has left the cognition of spiriatuality and in the process each individual gains a sense of self which is on the road to "freedom". No conspiracy here, the scientists are not bad guys, but an objectification of the spiritual is necessary for our time and through this training in thinking mankind will progress.

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking is associated with the brain (which is part of the nervous system). You say that is self-evident (I'm not sure it is, but science supports it, so it is definitely evident). However, you don't think feelings are too? Really? That's... interesting. There has been a lot of study done to show that feelings are associated with brain activity. That's how we have medicine for depression. And, that's how drugs affect our feelings -- by inhibiting or stimulating certain parts of the brain.


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A medicine can affect your feelings but it does not mean that the feelings are localized in the brain. The correct understanding is to consider the world of feelings as the rhythmic manifestation of the human being. Consider a Shakespherean actor who holds his heart when expressing his love for the lady.It would be best to look at yourself and gain an understanding as to where your feelings lay.

To clarify, a thought indeed has a feeling and willing aspect to it and these 3 soul expressions are intermixed and not separate throughout the body. In order to have a thought it must be willed and there is a corresponding feeling to it. LIkewise a feeling contains a thought and will aspoect but it is not so clear and vague which is the nature of our feelings. The will is the most mysterious of the human being as the movement of your leg contains a big gap between the thought which initiates the activity and the completed activity.

Experience a Beethoven symphony or the works of Wagner and ask whether your head is getting the major feeling.This is not to say that you can't experience feelings in your head(try reading Aquinas and get the "big head" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] but there is a rhythm associated with the nervous system as with the heart and circulatory system as well as our digestive system. These rhythms are not products of the physical expressions but vice versa(I know this can be expressed a little better).




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"I" is just a word.

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"I AM the I AM"-our "I" is the spiritual aspect of our being which can be likened to a drop of divinity in the ocean of the spirit. Not "just a word" but a reality of which we human beings are.

carlo

[ QUOTE ]
No, scientific thinking which offers an objectivity unparalled was and is necessary for the progression of mankind. You could say that mankind,via materialistic science, has left the cognition of spiriatuality and in the process each individual gains a sense of self which is on the road to "freedom". No conspiracy here, the scientists are not bad guys, but an objectification of the spiritual is necessary for our time and through this training in thinking mankind will progress.
......
A medicine can affect your feelings but it does not mean that the feelings are localized in the brain. The correct understanding is to consider the world of feelings as the rhythmic manifestation of the human being. Consider a Shakespherean actor who holds his heart when expressing his love for the lady.It would be best to look at yourself and gain an understanding as to where your feelings lay.

To clarify, a thought indeed has a feeling and willing aspect to it and these 3 soul expressions are intermixed and not separate throughout the body. In order to have a thought it must be willed and there is a corresponding feeling to it. LIkewise a feeling contains a thought and will aspoect but it is not so clear and vague which is the nature of our feelings. The will is the most mysterious of the human being as the movement of your leg contains a big gap between the thought which initiates the activity and the completed activity.

Experience a Beethoven symphony or the works of Wagner and ask whether your head is getting the major feeling.This is not to say that you can't experience feelings in your head(try reading Aquinas and get the "big head" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] but there is a rhythm associated with the nervous system as with the heart and circulatory system as well as our digestive system. These rhythms are not products of the physical expressions but vice versa(I know this can be expressed a little better).
..........

"I AM the I AM"-our "I" is the spiritual aspect of our being which can be likened to a drop of divinity in the ocean of the spirit. Not "just a word" but a reality of which we human beings are.

carlo

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Carlo,

This seems like pontificating to me. You are making all sorts of fantastic explanations and claims of reasons by way of supposedly facts without quoting any reference or authority! I presume you have a direct line of communication established with the "Know-all". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

By the way, have you ever beed abducted by aliens as well, or can you as easily explain this phenomena in a similarly as coherent way?

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Sleep may help as for good reason it has been called the "little death". To our everyday thinking it is a great mystery for how much is known about sleep? Modern scientists use electrodes and offer REM,etc. but this goes no furthur than offering a material understanding via another materiality.

In sleep our soul/spiritual being leaves the body and what you see sleeping on a bed are the physical body and what could be called the formative force body which contains our memories and is expressed in pictures. Upon sleep consciousness changes and the individual finds himself in the "Bosom of the Godhead" for want of a better term. You are now outside your physical/formative force body which is a change of consciousness. In this "bosom" one finds the angelic beings who have since the beginning of time offered sacrifice in order to bring the human divine spirits to their destiny. Christianity and other religions have a rich history of names for these beings and they are real and aid in sleep and in death. You really are a "Child of God".

Went a little over the edge on this one but let it be known that you are cared for in sleep and in death.


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This one really tops the lot of them and really is the one that got my attention and forced my relying (I could really not help myself). "The little death" etymology seems to have escaped your usual references implied accuracy. It is a direct translation of the french "La petite Mort" and its import and meaning is somewhat different to sleep. FYI, it refers to the post coital and post ejaculation, or post oragsmic, period of time for a man, where he would rather stay still and reviewing the experience just had, than pander to the woman need for re-assurances. LOL

You sound quite young Carlo. Good luck with your angels etc...

[DavidL]

Good question, Lestat.

As a Christian, I believe that after the brain ceases to function, and gets shoveled into the grave, it's the soul ultimately "experiences" heaven or hell. Hence the soul is not dependent upon the brain (or any other part of the physical body) for its existence. The physical being is there simply as a "shell" for the soul, but in so far as it exists in conjunction with the body, the soul (consciousness) appears to be trapped in the space-time world.

I'm afraid that doesn't answer your question very well, but I'd guess that it's the souls that do the sinning (Jesus says, for example, that you only have to conceive adultery, to have effectively performed it) and the physical is nothing more than the material manifestation made possible by the body's existence in the space-time world. By that definition it's perfectly just that it's the soul, rather than the body, that attains heaven or hell.

IMHO Carlo's point is an excellent one, namely that if no soul exists, one can not say "I think that", but "my brain thinks that".

My wife (born in the Philippines) has had two near-death experiences, one when she was approx 5 years old, and the other when she was 29. On the second occasion, which she remembers vividly, she claims that she saw her soul leave her body, i.e. the view occurred from the standpoint of a third component entity.

I'm convinced that there is more to life than just the physical realm. But of course, as has been pointed out, in doing so I depart from "fact" and into "belief". (However, to my wife, her near-death experiences are "fact"; hence I believe that "fact" can be subjective). Whatever, I don't see departure from "fact" as being a "crime", in so far as logic and knowledge don't have the answers to everything. Assuming that everything can be explained by reason, or some kind of "cause and effect", is just that – an assumption. If one wants to suspend faith to the point of attaining utter objectivity, absolutely anything is theoretically possible.

David