Wow, another 100 bets gone. I need help, stat!

SpaceAce · #1 06-06-2005, 05:28 PM

It's been a long time since I didn't feel comfortable with my poker skills but now.... I just don't know how to stop the bleeding. I just lost another 100 bets in a shortish online session. Every hand I make is second best by the time showdown comes around. It seems like I haven't been able to win a hand of poker since late last year. I built up an online stake but with all the beatings I am taking, I'm winning like one bet per day it seems. I need some review: am I still running uncrhistly bad or am I butchering these hands and I just can't see it? Am I paying off where I shouldn't or creating situations where these guys are playing correctly against me? In Small Stakes Hold'Em and various other books, there is discussion of how bad beats are often the result of our own bad play and if I am getting destroyed because of something I am doing, I want to fix it NOW. I also want to plug up any massive payoff leaks I might have and not be aware of.

PLEASE, I appreciate all input and comments but PLEASE make your comments before checking the results. I need to know what is correct when it is time to make the decision, not after we've seen everyone's cards.

Assume villains/players are all typical low limit online players unless otherwise noted.

Sorry about the mass number of hands but almost every hand I've played in the last few months looks like one of these (although these are all from today) and I want to find out why I suck so bad all of a sudden.

-------- 1 --------:
Three-handed $3/$6
I have K7o in the small blind. UTG limps, I complete (I think a raise is useless here as both would definitely call... comments?) and the big blind checks.

Flop: K56 rainbow.

I bet, big blind calls, limper calls.

Turn: 6

I bet, big blind calls, limper folds.

River: 9

I bet, big blind raises.

Do I pay this off?

Results:
I called. Big blind had 78 for the straight

-------- 2 --------:
Main villains are typical online low limit players.

I have AA in the small blind. Two limpers, the cutoff raises, the button three-bets, I cap. One limper calls, cutoff and button call.

Flop: 446 (something raggedy with a small pair, may have been 455) rainbow.

I bet, limper calls, cutoff raises, button calls, I reraise, limper calls, cutoff caps, button calls.

Turn: total blank.

I check, limper checks, cutoff bets, button calls, I check-raise, all call.

River: King

I bet, limper calls, cutoff raises, button calls. Hero...?

Results:
Cutoff has KK for the rivered boat. Limper and button both have 99.

-------- 3 --------:
I have AA in the big blind. Small blind open-completes, I raise, he three-bets, I cap.

Flop: A37 with two of a suit I don't have.

Small blind bets, I raise, he three-bets, I cap.

Turn: offsuit J.

Small blind checks, I bet, he check-raises, I three-bet, he caps.

River: offsuit King.

Small blind bets and we cap it.

Easiest cap ever, right?

Results:
Small blind had QTo for the runner-runner straight

-------- 4 --------:
Three-handed $2/$4.

Here is my note on the villain:
"Called my pre-flop raise K5o in the small blind. Led into me on a ten-high flop with no pair, no draw. Called my raise, check/called a blank turn unimproved and bet into me when she spiked a five."

I get KK UTG and raise. The small blind fold and the big blind calls.

Flop: 7XX (I forget what the Xs were but they were not a factor and they were not suited or in any way scary for my Kings. I think 7 was second pair.).

Big blind bets, I raise, she three-bets, I cap.

Turn: 7.

She checks, I bet, she check-raises.

Do I just lay this down and be done with it or what?

Results:
I called it down and got shown some random 7.

-------- 5 --------:
I get AKs in the cutoff. Middle position raises, I three-bet and the button caps it. Middle position calls, I call.

Flop: AK7 with a flush draw.

Middle position checks, I bet, button raises, middle position folds, I reraise, button caps.

Turn: offsuit 3 or 4, something like that.

Hero...? Bet into this guy again? Check/call? If I bet and get raised, I am calling down 100% of the time, right?

Results:
I called down and villain had 77.

-------- 6 --------:
MP open-raises, I three-bet on the buttong with TT. MP caps and we see the flop heads-up.

Flop: TXX, ten is the top card.

MP bets, I raise, he reraises, I cap.

Turn: Queen

MP checks, I bet, MP check-raises, I...?

Results:
I reraised, MP capped and I just called on the river. MP had QQ for the turned bigger set.

-------- 7 --------:
I have KK in middle position. EP raises, I three-bet, the guy directly to my left cold-calls, EP calls.

Flop: offsuit junk, something like 267.

Ep checks, I bet, villain to my left raises, EP calls two, I reraise, villain caps, EP drops, I call.

Turn: blank.

I bet, villain raises, I...?

Do I give him credit for having KK beaten? If so, by what? Do I have outs? Do I give it up and save money or call it down? Should I have slowed down earlier?

Results:
Villain had Aces.

-------- 8 --------:
I have KQs in the big blind. A few limpers to the cutoff who raises. The small blinds calls, I call, limpers call.

Flop: KXX rainbow, none of my suit.

I check. Checked to the cutoff who bets, small blind folds, I check-raise, one person cold-calls and the cutoff three-bets.

Where to go from here assuming no particular read on the cutoff? This of course is an extremely common situation and I wonder if I am bleeding chips here.

Results:
Villain was not particularly aggressive so I called and check/folded the turn. Cutoff had AK and the caller had middle pair or something similar.

-------- 9 --------:
I raise AQs in middle position after one limper. MP2 cold-calls, the big blind calls, the limper calls.

Flop: AXX, no flush draw and no obvious straight draws.

Big blind checks, limper bets, I raise, MP2 cold-calls, big blind folds, limper calls.

Turn: blank.

Limper checks, I bet, MP2 calls, limper folds.

River: sure looks like a blank.

I bet, MP2 raises.

I pay this off 100% of the time unless MP2 only raises the nuts, right? There's no reason for me to get spooked by all his calling, either, is there? I don't slow down at any point, do I? Not without some kind of read, anyway.

Results:
Villain has AKs and I am out-kicked.

-------- 10 --------:
One limper to me in middle position, I raise with red Jacks. One cold-caller behind me, limper calls.

Flop: 267, two hearts.

Checked to me, I bet, only the limper calls.

Turn: offsuit 8.

Limper checks, I bet, he check-raises me. What's my plan, now?

Results:
I spewed two more bets and got shown 9To for the filled gutshot.

-------- 11 --------:
I limp after a couple of limpers with KJo on the button.

Flop: KQ2 rainbow.

Checked to me, I bet, one player calls in EP.

Turn: offsuit 3.

Checked to me, I bet, EP check-raises me.

Am I ever good here? Can I save myself grief and just start folding every time I am check-raised with less than the nuts? What if that Queen were not out there and I had KQ?

Results:
I called this down which I think was pure spewing and got shown KQo.

-------- 12 --------:
I open-raise A9s on the button. The small blind three-bets and I call.

Flop: AT9

How many bets to go on the flop and/or turn?

Results:
I've been in this (or very similar) situation four or five times today alone and every time we got in more than three bets, I was beaten by a better two pair.

-------- GENERIC --------:
What standards are you using to decide whether to make a follow-up flop bet after raising pre-flop in the $2/$4 - $5/$10 games? I think I am no longer doing this optimally. Consider flop texture and field size.

Thanks,
SpaceAce

wildwood · #2 06-06-2005, 06:46 PM

Wow, lots of hands there. I will try to reply with something of value. In the book "Bobby Baldwin's Winning Poker Secrets" Holdem rule six: "When you begin with a big pair, put the action in before the flop. Thereafter play cautiously unless you improve."
Some general comments about the 12 hands you posted. If I have a big pair and I get 3bet or worse on the flop, I have to give my opponent credit for something. If it turns out they had nothing, then I don't think their chips are long for this world. Lots of times I'll bet my big pairs post-flop until I run into resistance, and then I may just call it down depending on the situation and player unless I improve. You have to evaluate flop texture; flop Q73rainbow, if you're best on the flop, you're likely to be best on the river because no flush or straight draws are out. HPFAP also talks about playing a little tighter post-flop in unraised pots. You got KK beat by AA; I'm just resigned to losing some chips when that happens because I'm always going to play KK strongly. The odds of AA being out when you have KK are small, but it does happen. You lost set over set; that rarely happens. I lose chips when that happens because I don't get sets very often and I play them strong. I got beat once set over set over set and I lost a giant pot with bottom set. When I flop top & bottom pair or bottom two pair, generally I'll throw in one raise on the flop. Top two pair is a bit stronger. Again it depends on the situation. I recommend posting two or three hands at a time because it takes awhile to go through 12 hands and some people don't have that much time. I've rambled enough. Hope that helps. (you might consider dropping down in limits until your confidence comes back)

Khern · #3 06-07-2005, 12:45 AM

All answers written before looking at results. These are my thoughts. I'm not sure how much they are worth. My postflop play in limit games needs some work. I'm not sure what the Low Limit meta looks like online right now. Haven't played ring games online since January.

1) "Do I pay off?"no. I generally check call the river. Say: bet-bet-pick off bluff. If I bet it's because I can fold too a raise from a predictable player. Assume he has at least a 6. Your continued betting from a blind position should carry the threat of a 6. When I have a bad run, and am in a reviewing-my-game mode, I check fold the flop, or possibly Check and make an opportunity raise vs a LP bettor.

2) A little on the aggressive side, but ok. Call on the end.

3) Easiest cap ever? Yes. Post river play: SB gets a note and goes on buddy list.

4) player is fish: call down.

5) Check call down. He shouldn't be positioning a flush draw after capping preflop, and he shouldn't have AQ. Maybe he has A8, but after he caps the flop...

6) Don't know. Just got Deer-in-headlights feeling and I'm not even playing He should have QQ, but Whatever, 3 bet or just call down. I don't know. On second thought, go ahead and 3 bet

Just looked. Ouch, yep should have QQ

7) With no flush draw on the flop for someone to overplay, I Check call down after villain caps the flop. Having not done that, I think you gotta call down. He's still not really getting odds preflop on calling for a set.

ooo, I almost said, he either has aces or he wasn't getting odds
8) I call down, but I may be bleeding chips here too.
9) Yes I pay off
10) Fold. You haven't slowed down, and he's still playing JJ is no good.

9To huh. Bring up the points of player modeling. Is this guy only betting once he has it, or is he a polyfish?

11) I check the turn, settle for a bet one way or the other on the river. Having not done that, fold the turn (By this point, I'm likely biased because I realize all your posted hands are losers. Randomize hand postings to prevnet bias.)
12) cap the flop, raise and call down if he leads the turn. 3bet and call down if he CR's the turn.

I don't like my thoughts on 8. That might be because you result contained additional info on player, but maybe I just handle that situation well.

-John

Lurkmaster Flex · #4 06-07-2005, 04:33 AM

heh im not going to post comments on your hands as khern covered them pretty well. I just feel for you, I havent posted a winning session in going on 10 sessions now. I've lost over 250 bb out of my br. I've seen so many of these over and over myself it makes my head hurt. Just gotta keep on keeping on as they say.

GuyOnTilt · #5 06-07-2005, 04:42 AM

Dude, I dropped 100 BB's in <35 minutes 4-tabling today. No biggie.

GoT

oreogod · #6 06-07-2005, 06:49 AM

Hand 1: FOLD PREFLOP. What are u doing completing a 1/3 sb with K7o. U dont even complete a 1/2 SB with that crap. Fold to a river raise.

Hand 2: Looks good. What do u put CO on, I put him on QQ or KK. I usually bet this, sometimes even fold to a raise (this is player dependant), but sometimes I check it if Im confident in my read. In this hand, I check the river. Flame away if need be, I was right.

Hand 3: Against most player, absolutly cap it. Especially heads up. It sucks he hit, but you will absolutly love him in the future.

Hand 4:Call down.

I will look at the rest later...Im tired and need to go to bed.

Hoi Polloi · #7 06-07-2005, 07:26 AM

Don't post so many hands in one post. Don't post results unless this is just a pity party.

Hand 1: fold pre-flop--what are you gonna get but kicker trouble unless you flop 2 pair or trips for which you are not getting odds.

crunchy1 · #8 06-07-2005, 08:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"Bobby Baldwin's Winning Poker Secrets" Holdem rule six: "When you begin with a big pair, put the action in before the flop. Thereafter play cautiously unless you improve."

[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds like No-Limit advice. If it was intended for limit - it really, REALLY sucks for SSHE games.

crunchy1 · #9 06-07-2005, 08:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: FOLD PREFLOP. What are u doing completing a 1/3 sb with K7o. U dont even complete a 1/2 SB with that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising here is not a bad option if the BB is tight and the UTG limper plays poorly post-flop. However, OP didn't give any reads to to suggest these specific circumstances.

SpaceAce · #10 06-07-2005, 08:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, lots of hands there. I will try to reply with something of value. In the book "Bobby Baldwin's Winning Poker Secrets" Holdem rule six: "When you begin with a big pair, put the action in before the flop. Thereafter play cautiously unless you improve."
Some general comments about the 12 hands you posted. If I have a big pair and I get 3bet or worse on the flop, I have to give my opponent credit for something. If it turns out they had nothing, then I don't think their chips are long for this world. Lots of times I'll bet my big pairs post-flop until I run into resistance, and then I may just call it down depending on the situation and player unless I improve. You have to evaluate flop texture; flop Q73rainbow, if you're best on the flop, you're likely to be best on the river because no flush or straight draws are out. HPFAP also talks about playing a little tighter post-flop in unraised pots. You got KK beat by AA; I'm just resigned to losing some chips when that happens because I'm always going to play KK strongly. The odds of AA being out when you have KK are small, but it does happen. You lost set over set; that rarely happens. I lose chips when that happens because I don't get sets very often and I play them strong. I got beat once set over set over set and I lost a giant pot with bottom set. When I flop top & bottom pair or bottom two pair, generally I'll throw in one raise on the flop. Top two pair is a bit stronger. Again it depends on the situation. I recommend posting two or three hands at a time because it takes awhile to go through 12 hands and some people don't have that much time. I've rambled enough. Hope that helps. (you might consider dropping down in limits until your confidence comes back)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the comments. There aren't too many limits under $2/$4 for me to drop down to, though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SpaceAce