Am I losing my mind or was this an easy fold?

[cmwck]

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No one you want to fold is folding this flop to a raise. Waiting for a black turn and raising is much better, IMO.

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Good point. I forgot that the larger pot size could also work against us, as we would offer 8.5:1 odds for someone to call with bottom or middle pair. In the SSH example, we were able to offer a much worse 6.5:1 odds. In this sense, waiting until the turn to protect has its merits. If somebody with middle pair _still_ calls two cold on the turn, that's $$$ for us.

But, do you really think that it's impossible that somebody would fold bottom pair for two bets on the flop even though they were technically getting correct odds for it?

[psyduck]

Yeah waiting till turn to raise seems like a good line, better than raising the flop. But folding should never be an option here.

[psyduck]

The thing that's scaring me is posters with thousands of posts behind them (like Chief at the very top) who advocated folding. Maybe the texture of their games is vastly different, but I'm never ever folding this hand with this pot and this action.

[rmarotti]

Folding here is not all that horrible with some sort of read. I am a known LAG who happens to be on a lucky heater. Take nothing I say very seriously.

[New001]

Folding here is perfectly fine. It's not the first bettor that's the problem, it's the fact that two people called him. Even if they all have middle or bottom pair, or a flush draw, you've got to dodge a lot of the deck twice to beat them.

I don't like calling and raising the turn at all.

[SpaceAce]

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Is the fact that somebody can make a flush at the same time we make a set enough to turn a raise into a fold? If the flop in this thread had come all black, then I definitely think raising is correct. You would probably have enough implied odds to continue in this pot with your draw to a set alone.

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If the flop comes spades and clubs, I might play differently. If I have the Queen of hearts, I might play differently. If the flop simply doesn't have a red draw on it, I might play differently. If people fold in front of me, I might play differently. If there are less or more people to act behind me, I might play differently. I just felt that the players and this situation were conspiring to cost me bets.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

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What the [censored]! The pot is HUGE! Don't try to save bets, try to win the pot. How do you do this? BE AGGRESSIVE AND GET PEOPLE TO FOLD! Flop bettor could easily have a king or a heart. BUT WHY GIVE CREDIT DUE TO A SINGLE BET?

At the VERY LEAST, you should call and raise a safe turn.

When you're in a downswing, it's very easy to become weak-tight. But instead, realize that you don't want to be trying to save bets in huge pots.

DOOOOOOOON'T POST RESULTS

sigh, it's all good [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I hope someone good comes by and kicks all of our asses with the most EV+ line to take...

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While it's possible that folding was not the best option, I don't think it's nearly as clear as your post implies. There are six people in the hand, I don't have the Queen of hearts, three people are interested ahead of me, etc.

In the meantime, since I posted this, I have been in similar situations at least a dozen times. Sometimes many people on the flop, sometimes one or two opponents, sometimes facing aggression, sometimes just being called down. I went back to raising and playing strongly and I lost every one. That's no an exaggeration, since I posted this I have been paying extra attention to situations like this. Maybe I am just running bad but maybe this is a clearer fold than some people think. It's hard to be completely objective.

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

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Why? Is it because there are allready two callers? Is it because one of our queens could make a flush for somebody else? I would think that these are minor differences that would be compensated for the bigger pot odds Hero is getting.

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Well, take it one step at a time.
1) SIX people saw the flop in a raised pot. Then there was an early position bet and two callers with two people to act behind you. How often do you honestly believe you are ahead here?
2) IF you are ahead, which cards do you think are safe? Hearts? Aces? More sixes or fours to match the ones on the flop?
3) If you are behind, you're likely drawing to one out. How often do you think the Queen of hearts is good?

Those are all things I had to consider when making my choice.

SpaceAce

[chief444]

Folding probably isn't too bad here. Certainly not as bad as you're making it out to be. That's all I was saying. Personally, I would always call here but I do a lot more peeling on the flop than I think most. Raising here is absolutely pointless, IMO.

[chesspain]

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This seems to be a very weak-tight fold with a pot THIS size. First player and two players behind him are on a flush draw definitely.

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So all three players are on flush draws? The only thing definate is that you are not a psy(chic)duck.