Did I Just Have A Limit Holdem Epiphany?

[PokerProdigy]

Alright, so first I am going to give you guys a little bit of background about me, so you'll be better able to give me some feedback. I am 20 years old and I have been playing poker and reading a lot of poker since I was 18. I have mostly just tried to stay focused on learning the game of holdem (both limit and no-limit) but I also read up a bit about other games just to improve my overall poker knowledge, such as, 7 card stud, omaha high-low split 8 or better, 7 card stud high-low 8 or better, and general poker theory. I would eventually like to be very proficient at all games, but first I just want to master the game of holdem. Especially, I want to master the game of limit holdem cash-games (internet and live). The only problem is that I always seem to lose money while I am playing limit holdem cash-games. The majority of my time playing in these games is done at $2/4 games while 4 tabling on the internet. Basically, I want to start off being able to beat the low limit stuff and then move into beating the middle-high limit stuff. Now over the past couple months I have became pretty good at small buy in ($10+1 and $20+2) no-limit holdem single table tournaments. But whenever I jump back over to limit holdem cash games I seem to lose my money. The most frusturating part is that I am not sure where I am going wrong because I feel like I have a good grip on the game. I understand pot odds, EV, etc... I play tight and aggressive and I also follow tight preflop guidelines. But even with all this understanding of these things I STILL LOSE MONEY.

However, I think I may have final figured out what my problem is and I want you guys to tell me whether or not you think this is it. My problem (I think) is that I am playing 4 tables and therefore, I cannot understand what types of players my opponents are. I also DO NOT have any of the programs/software which keeps track of these things for me. It seems to me that one of the most important strategies in cash games, is to understand the way your opponent plays, and then to be able to make adjustments based on that. Furthermore, it seems that most of the money in limit holdem comes from understanding whether marginal situations are profitable or unprofitable, and it seems to me that this would rely heavily on the players who are in the hand with you. Atleast one should have a general idea of the opposition, such as, tight passive, tight aggressive, loose passive, and loose aggressive. Another thing is that there are many players who understand the math very well, who still are very marginal winners. Yet someone who can read opponents and understand opponents seems to be able to become a big winner. For example, even Jennifer Harmon says/admits that she doesn't understand the math that well and that she just "goes off feel" and she is one of the biggest cash game winners in limit holdem.

Ok, so I realize this post was a little long and consisted of me rambling a bit, but I am just trying to figure out if this is what winning at limit holdem cash games is all about, which is getting to know your opponents and making proper adjustments. I feel like I already have a good understanding of basic strategy, poker math, etc... and yet, I am still a losing limit holdem player in cash games. And I definitely feel like I have a better understanding of the basic strategy, poker math, etc... then 90% or more of the $2/4 players online, and yet I am still losing. This makes me think that I need to get the software/programs which track my opponents and in live games I need to pay more attention. I feel like my previous knowledge has eliminated any major leaks in my game, but in order to be a winner I'll need to start playing my game according to the way my opponents play there game. What do you think?

Also, feel free to offer any questions, comments, advice, opinions, information, tips, etc... on this topic/post.

P.S. I am posting this in multiple forums so don't get upset if you see/read it all over the place. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[DcifrThs]

you have been losing since you're 18?

you are now 20?

you play tight, but apparantly not good postflop, i assume.

its taken you 2 years to get to this point?

you didn't have an epiphany.

i didn't even read 30% of your post. it doesn't matter.

you play 4 tables w/ no tracking software and lose money and mention playing by feel?

enjoy the abyss. b/c aparantly, you do.

Barron

[random]

If you have a better understanding than 90% of 2/4 players, you should win with ease, even with no reads at all.

Why are you four tabling when you never win?

Play fewer tables and more hands and you'll get a better feel for the game. Do get the software. Get PokerAce so you won't have to stop and check hand histories to see all hands at showdown, among other things. And get PokerTracker, of course... for obvious reasons. While a read on every individual you play against isn't necessary, a collective read on the entire 2/4 playerbase will go a long way.

[Leaky Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think I may have final figured out what my problem is and I want you guys to tell me whether or not you think this is it. My problem (I think) is that I am playing 4 tables and therefore, I cannot understand what types of players my opponents are.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, if you have been losing that long at those stakes your problems are much more basic than that.

[Eric P]

i read 50% of the post, i was bad at 18 but thought i was good. I lost money but not that much

I'm 21 I win money now but think i'm [censored] awful, playing four tables scares me, even at 2/4 (although i think i could win by playing every hand standard) I play 10/20 and 15/30 live and win (although not that much). You need to forget about pre-flop and learn how to play post-flop, as each street become more and more important

[kidcolin]

Honestly, you're probably just nowhere near as good as you think you are. You shouldn't NEED tracking software to win (though 4 tabling maybe), even if only meagerly. I doubt most of these great players NEED tracking software.. I didn't use them for a while (not implying I'm great.. not even close). I just realized it was stupid not to. So yeah.. get the software. Analyze your game. But there are probably considerably large holes in your poker knowledge.

[hexag1]

you say you want to know what winning holdem is all about?
its all about post flop play. and its much more complex than betting the best hand and folding nothing.
step 1. read Small Stakes Holdem by Sklansky et al..
step 2. move DOWN in limits and try to beat $0.10 - $0.25 on UB.

I think I know what the problem is as I used to be in the exac same boat you are in now. I am willing to bet you are, in fact, playing too tightly at the low limits and not seeing enough showdowns (read: not playing optimally postflop). I am not sure of your aggression, although I imagine it is fairly good, as you said you can beat the $10+1 and $20+1s. This might be where the problem stems from, as the SNG's teach you to play excessively tight the first few rounds and to avoid unneccessary risk.

This is one quality that doesn't translate over well to limit hold'em. In low limit ring games (and I assume you are referring to full ring), you need to take advantage of more spots where the pot is laying good odds with all those bad players, both pre and postflop. You should go ahead and purchase PT, as it will tell you exactly where you stand as a player and what needs to be changed.

[einbert]

I think you're really onto something.

The delusion that sooo many twoplustwoers are addicted to, for whatever reason, is that LHE is and should be easy. Easy hands, easy situations, easy to find good tables, easy money. This idea could not be further from the truth, and it seems you have come to recognize that.

[einbert]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't even read 30% of your post. it doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
Listening (reading) is a very useful and essential skill to communication. I think it does matter, otherwise the English language would only have half as many words (or less).

[ QUOTE ]
you play 4 tables w/ no tracking software and lose money and mention playing by feel?

enjoy the abyss. b/c aparantly, you do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently, he doesn't. If you had actually read his post you would notice that he has realized the error of his ways. The first step to overcoming any major problem is to actually realize what the problem is, assess it honestly to yourself and face up to it. He is obviously on the road to progress.

Everyone starts somewhere. You may be further along than he is, you may be further along than I am, but you certainly aren't *there*.　　Noone is. You can help him find his way or you can simply not listen to him and tell him he has no chance.