Please don't wake me, no don't shake me, leave me where i am

1800GAMBLER · #1 09-20-2005, 09:05 AM

... i'm only sleeping. No stats

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO pauses for a short time bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO almost auto bets, Hero folds.

Thoughts?

tongni · #2 09-20-2005, 09:09 AM

Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

1800GAMBLER · #3 09-20-2005, 09:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

glen · #4 09-20-2005, 10:03 AM

The question is how much more info do you get by his river bet. I would say not much. If he bet any pair lower than jacks on the turn, he's probably gonna do it again on the river. I were in the hand against you I would give up any bluff after the turn since I would assume you would call the river with king high, but a lot of people don't do that, so in your spot I think I would call and be shown an Q, A, or some small-mid pair. . .

lil feller · #5 09-20-2005, 03:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how. If you're behind on the turn you're drawing dead so obviously if your calling its because you think your in front.

The river card can't change anything, and with no reads you have no way of knowing whether this opponent is any more likely to bluff twice or value bet twice. The pause might mean something, but could mean anything or nothing. Maybe he spilt his water glass, maybe he didn't want to bluff on the turn but thought and decided to do so. Maybe after deciding to bluff the turn he committed to bluffing the river and checked the autobet button.

I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

geormiet · #6 09-20-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the logic that if he bets the 2nd street the chances of his having the best increases to where folding is correct?

i.e. you were calling on the 1st street hoping that he will check behind on the 2nd street often enough in combination with you improve often enough to make the play profitable.

Like you said this is bad against an unknown, but there are certain basic situations where you could pull this off against an unknown.

glen · #7 09-20-2005, 07:37 PM

lil feller didn't say anything about the flop call, just the logic that if you fold the hand it should be on the turn, and that calling the turn and folding the river is bad, which I agree with, unless you have a strong reason to think you are definitely not good, which is unlikely at party. . .

lil feller · #8 09-20-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the logic that if he bets the 2nd street the chances of his having the best increases to where folding is correct?

i.e. you were calling on the 1st street hoping that he will check behind on the 2nd street often enough in combination with you improve often enough to make the play profitable.

Like you said this is bad against an unknown, but there are certain basic situations where you could pull this off against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just can't ever see this being correct against an unknown player. Some players you know will only fire once, an this is certainly a board where players like that would take that line. This is an unknown player though, and if you've convinced yourself that he's bluffing on the turn, then your showing the hand down. If you're not sure of his intention then calling is horrible, because you can't be any more sure when he bets the river because he's an unknown.

Its about expectations. Against somebody you know, and more importantly somebody that knows you, you can reasonably assume that they EXPECT you to call the river after you call the turn. Therefore, you should fold the river if they bet again, since they're expecting you to call.

Against an unknown there are no reasonable expectations, especially online. People do stuff that makes no sense all the time. I'm just saying in this particular instance if your gonna fold, fold on the turn.

lf

Chris Callahan · #9 09-21-2005, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how. [...] I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I see a problem with your reasoning: If it's correct to never fold on the river, then it's correct to never bluff. Following this, it would now be correct to fold.

--- Chris Callahan

steveyz · #10 09-21-2005, 02:05 AM

The principle here is that there are a lot of hands that will take a stab at betting that turn that will give up and not fire the last barrel on the river (all PPs below Qs).