A check-raise river bluff - Page 2

Supdog42 · #11 08-25-2005, 09:58 AM

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I'm not a big fan of raising AJo UTG. That said, given your read on the button I can understand the flop check and call, but with the turn unimproving your hand, I would fold here. Since you stayed in, the raise on the end may be the only way he'll fold. Certainly calling the river is a waste, but folding here probably is better than raising.

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chock full of bad advice

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OK, then your good advice is?

bugstud · #12 08-25-2005, 10:11 AM

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I'm not a big fan of raising AJo UTG. That said, given your read on the button I can understand the flop check and call, but with the turn unimproving your hand, I would fold here. Since you stayed in, the raise on the end may be the only way he'll fold. Certainly calling the river is a waste, but folding here probably is better than raising.

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chock full of bad advice

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OK, then your good advice is?

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it's AJo UTG+1 9 handed. IF you're not raising this you hate money. secondly, against a guy playing 80%, raising 20% and nearly 2 agg factor for all of his hands, I a, seeing a showdown unless the board gets fugly, really really fugly, against this guy.

I actually like the river if you know the guy won't 3bet bluff, but I've never seen the type.

PokerBob · #13 08-25-2005, 10:29 AM

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PartyPoker - $15/$30 - 9 players

Button is 81/20/1.9 (108 hands). I had already played a bunch of pots with him and had been letting him bluff me and I was taking down pots with Ace high or small pairs.

Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

PreFlop
UTG folds, Hero RAISES, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button RAISES
SB folds, BB folds, Hero Calls

(2 players) FLOP: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 3.83 BB )
Hero checks, Button BETS
Hero Calls

(2 players) TURN: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 4.83 BB )
Hero checks, Button BETS
Hero Calls

(2 players) RIVER: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( Pot Size: 6.83 BB )
Hero checks, Button BETS
Hero RAISES

My feeling is that he will fold most of his bluffs and some legitimate hands here. Am I crazy?

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IMO he's not folding. That said, you may have the best hand.

Supdog42 · #14 08-25-2005, 10:33 AM

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I'm not a big fan of raising AJo UTG. That said, given your read on the button I can understand the flop check and call, but with the turn unimproving your hand, I would fold here. Since you stayed in, the raise on the end may be the only way he'll fold. Certainly calling the river is a waste, but folding here probably is better than raising.

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chock full of bad advice

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OK, then your good advice is?

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it's AJo UTG+1 9 handed. IF you're not raising this you hate money. secondly, against a guy playing 80%, raising 20% and nearly 2 agg factor for all of his hands, I a, seeing a showdown unless the board gets fugly, really really fugly, against this guy.

I actually like the river if you know the guy won't 3bet bluff, but I've never seen the type.

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We can disagree on the AJo raise in early position, but once isolated against this maniac, I've seen too many situations where players like this turn over some small PP. After thinking about my earlier post, is this guy going to fold to a river raise? Most likely not with his stats.

tpir90036 · #15 08-25-2005, 10:45 AM

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I've seen too many situations where players like this turn over some small PP.

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Do a search on "range of hands".

Good luck,
tpir

MaxPower · #16 08-25-2005, 11:28 AM

First let me say that I've played over 150,000 hands at 15/30 and hundreds of thousands more at other limits and I would be suprised if this were the 3rd time I've tried to check-raise bluff the river. So I don't make habit of it.

You guys are right. You can't bluff a bluffer. They are always suspicious that you might be bluffing so they will call you. You shouldn't bluff really loose players. But there are always exceptions [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

My opponent folded to the check-raise which I'll admit probably means that I would have won this pot had I just called.

Now this player was extremely loose and aggressive before the flop and a total maniac after the flop. When I am heads-up against a player like this and I have a hand with showdown value, I happily check and call on every street and let him bluff off his chips. Of course, you don't win every hand, but overall I think this is a profitable strategy.

The problem I get into with this strategy is that some of these maniacs are thinking players. After I do this to them 3 or 4 times, they realize that I am going to call them down with almost anything. Now they will check-behind on the river when they have nothing and bet their weak hands for value. So it is not such a great strategy anymore. It is at this point where I think you can consider trying to bluff the maniac. That said, I don't think the pot in this example is big enough to justify the risk.

So my question is, is this phenomenon that I am describing real or am I deluded? If it is real, is there anything I can do to avoid it?

By the way, I have sat next to many maniacs in live games and have been able to see their cards at times. Most of them are able to lay down a decent hand against a player they perceive as passive. I actually believe that a maniac is more bluffable than a loose aggressive player (maybe I'm deluded again).

adios · #17 08-25-2005, 11:41 AM

Except he folded which means you could have won if you were playing 42o so he can be bluffed. I understand that playing 42o for a raise pre-flop in early position isn't a great idea. Nonetheless I think his fold on the end indicates something about his standards for re-raising pre-flop and/or calling on the end. Obviously he didn't have a pair or he would have called. Did he fold Ace high? Did he fold King high or less? If he folded Ace high he probably won't call without a pair very often (I realize he could have put you on a better Ace). If he folded King high or less he's got some pretty loose re-raising standards most likely.

ihardlyknowher · #18 08-25-2005, 03:40 PM

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The problem I get into with this strategy is that some of these maniacs are thinking players. After I do this to them 3 or 4 times, they realize that I am going to call them down with almost anything. Now they will check-behind on the river when they have nothing and bet their weak hands for value. So it is not such a great strategy anymore. It is at this point where I think you can consider trying to bluff the maniac. That said, I don't think the pot in this example is big enough to justify the risk.

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I agree with this. The other night, at Party 20/40, I was to the left of a real maniac pfr of 35%. I was 3-betting very light to isolate him. Then just calling until the river where I would raise if I had a hand. He picked up on this and started folding to my river raises. Then, I started bluff raising him on the river. It was so much fun. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

SmileyEH · #19 08-25-2005, 05:28 PM

Against a player like this I would probably cap it preflop. How you played it I would just call down the whole way and expect it to be profitable.

-SmileyEH