Another Question For Christians

[sandsmarc]

Ultimately, belief in "God" will disappear in a few centuries or millenniums. We are at the dawn of reason and old habits die hard. Luckily, most religious people behave as though there were no God, in spite of their professed beliefs. Meaning, they try to act in consonance with reality, even though their religious convictions are dissonant with the observed world.

Fortunately, man has the ability to compartmentalize irrationality and prevent it from invading daily life. As long as God stays in a little intellectual-emotional compartment, he is basically harmless and people use him to feel good and evade the inevitability of death. It cannot really work, but imagination is a wondeful thing.

Nothing wrong with that, as long as the compartment remains small and the rest of us are free not to manufacture the "oasis" if we are strong enough not to need it.

If it gets too big, you have, for example, the Muslim world where irrationality invades all aspects of life. The result is death, destruction, irrationality, and the attempted export of intellectual disintegration to others. In this case, religion becomes sociopathic.

That's why we need separation of church and state. It's a codified way of compartmentalizing the irrationality of religion on a societal scale. Basically, it's saying: "Religion is irrational, but makes people feel good. Therefore, let people go to Church, Synagogue, Temple, etc. Let them imagine they will achieve immortality. But keep it out of the realm of decision-making."

This is a good thing. Religion is a bad thing, but like alcohol, or gambling, in moderation in need not be harmful. It enhances weddings and makes funerals bearable. It can keep some weak people from gross immoralities.

But it is important to remember that morality is defined by men, for men. Moral conduct does not require a higher power. Ethical behavior is a function of individual philosophy, not God or religion. Ethical behavior can take place in the context of religious beliefs. Or not. Religious people hate to admit that but it's true. Religion and morality are completely separate concepts. You do not need to believe in any higher power to live an ethical life. You only need to observe reality and accept a rational philosophy that keeps social behavior organized and conducive to successful cohabitation.

God will one day be an odd concept that will be looked back upon as a part of thr transition of man from barbarism to civilization. God will then be described as a stepping stone. Something that was once necessary due to the intellectual inadequacy of man as he developed a comprehensive knowledge of the Universe.

If we can accept the temporal limits of our knowledge without postulating imagination as Truth, God will become obsolete.

Atheists are the progenitors of that Glorious state, and I am proud to be one of them.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
"David, I love your books, but this is the psychology forum. Everything useful here is going to get drowned out again by a whole new wave of God posts."

God, rushes, its all the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even God would get a chuckle from this.

[jpg7n16]

You started your post on a kind of odd topic. The Pope "blessing" the flock and "praying" for our soldiers mean different things to different people. I'm a Christian and I believe that the Pope "blesses" as a symbol of his care for the people of the church. It isn't neccessarily a prayer. Some people pray that our soldiers will win... some pray that their fathers will return from Iraq. One is a "prayer" of hope for the good of the nation... that I believe God is moderately concerned with. The other is a sincere request regarding a loved one. I believe God takes that one seriously and that such prayers are actually answered by God.

Wierd poker example since I know the people of this forum can relate: Harrington on Hold'Em pg 33-34 is titled "The Hidden Luck Factor in No-Limit Hold'Em" He spends the pages listing out a very different set of events from him changing his one pre-flop decision. He calls this a "hugely lucky (but invisible) swing for everyone concerned.

I think non-believers have large tendency to do just what he talks about in this section: they acknowledge the obvious good (or more often bad) "luck" but fail to see the hidden "luck" that God orchestrates every day. Can God cause the wind to blow towards a soldier so that he can smell an approaching enemy and hide (or shoot) and live to see his family again? Of course... but these small changes often go unnoticed by people who only want to see a god who completes their back-door flushes.

As for your other question... the passage is fairly well known and speaks about what you asked, and I can't say it any better. I'll quote your question:

[ QUOTE ]

But what about those who are not sure one way or the other? More precisely what about those who believe that there is only a pretty good possibility that there is such a god out there? (Some of those people will not admit their serious doubts for Pascal Wager reasons. But they still have them.) Are they subjected to the same punishments as out and out non believers?

[/ QUOTE ]

John 3:16-18
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

[purnell]

Yours is one of the least convincing arguments for theism I have ever seen. Very fuzzy thinking, if I dare to call it "thinking" at all.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Today the pope blessed his flock and the president asked us to pray for the soldiers. I'm one of those who is virtually certain that neither action will result in a response from any god. Others are positive it will, (or at least that there is a god out there who will listen and consider a response).

But what about those who are not sure one way or the other? More precisely what about those who believe that there is only a pretty good possibility that there is such a god out there? (Some of those people will not admit their serious doubts for Pascal Wager reasons. But they still have them.) Are they subjected to the same punishments as out and out non believers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether one is uncertain or not about the existence of “God” is virtually irrelevant to how they are punished. What punishments are you referring to anyway? The Eternal Damnation thing some Christians believe in? God doesn’t punish that way.

What is god, anyway? God is sort of like life: it’s everywhere. And I mean - everyhere. It’s just happening. It’s here and now. Your part of it. It’s in you. It’s in everybody. The rewards or punishments anyone is going to get are what they are experiencing right now. The Bible alludes to this where it says: “The kingdom of heaven is within you.” A lot of people, including Christians, don’t understand that.

God is not an old guy with a beard sitting on a cloud directing the activities on earth like an orchestra conductor and consciously doling out rewards and punishments.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good thing. Religion is a bad thing, but like alcohol, or gambling, in moderation in need not be harmful. It enhances weddings and makes funerals bearable. It can keep some weak people from gross immoralities.

...

Atheists are the progenitors of that Glorious state, and I am proud to be one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]\

Well put.

GG

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason [most highly intelligent people] do not believe in the God of organized religions is because an intelligent analysis of the evidence leads to the conclusion that these religions are almost certainly wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't take a genius to recognize or perhaps sense, that many organized religions are whack-a-do. However, the existance of some dogmatic and misguided organized religions is not evidence that a god does not exist.

[bodie]

I agree with you, but then I'm not a Christian. The older I get the less able I am to have patience with what seems to me to be mostly a man -made construct; that being religion.
And should those who aren't sure be punished the same as those who are non believers? I wouldn't see why the two groups should be any different.
If God did jump out of the clouds and appear, I would be happy - I've never understood why a God wouldn't make Himself obvious so that the world could run peacefully...all this talk about the "mystery of faith" just sounds like nonsense that men have made up to cover the fact that there are no answers.
Personally I've always half wished that God would turn out to be just like George Burns in that movie "Oh God". And a miracle or two wouldn't hurt either.

[snowden719]

the problem with Pascal's wager is that the logic used to support Pascal's wager can be used to support the Anti-Pascal's wager

Pascal's wager says that there is an infinite payoff to believing in God (I.E. going to heaven) and anyone who doesn't believe will go to hell. if you end up being right there is an infinite payoff and no harm in being wrong, so based on EV you should believe in God as there's no reason not to.

anti-Pascal's wager says that there is an infinitely negative result of believing in God, (going to hell) as God is actually a spiteful son of a bitch who sends all "believers" down to hell. Anyone who does not believe will go to heaven. If this is true then we should not believe in god for the worst thing that could happen is that we are right and nothing happens after we die, whereas there might be an infinite payout.


Since we are unsure if we are living in a world where Pascal's wager is true or where anti-Pascal's wager is true, we should not be persuaded to believe in God. Pascal made the assumption that God will reward the believers and punish the non-believers, but this assumption is warrantless, as the opposite is just as likely to be true.

[Jonny]

I agree with this. Also, you can't just say to yourself, I'm going to belive in god now, it doesnt work like that. If I know something is fake, I can't choose to beleive in it.

Another point in response to the guy who said religion will be dead in a century: The egyptians belived in MANY gods thousands of years ago, which are now 'known' to be fake. I don't see how the Christian god is any different.

In a little while people will realize how stupid they were for beliveing in a God.