Legal way to pay for chips/cards?

bolgenmod · #1 03-16-2005, 01:17 AM

In many of the threads about hosting a home game, I've read about people debating about some sort of "charge" for beverages or whatever. Although (standard disclaimer) I am not a lawyer, it seems clear that in most states what makes a legal friendly game technically illegal is the use of some sort of house charge. To me, food and bevs are not the biggest expense of hosting a game -- decent chips and cards are. I'd like to pass on an idea that our home game used.

Our home game is very regular (1 to 3 times a week), steady (core of 7-8 players), fairly long-standing (2 years). We live in a small town, and the game has a number of couples and a father/son; half of us are work colleagues (a bunch of damn college professors, if you want to know the truth!) It's a pretty small-stakes, but friendly game, but fiercely competitive for the small amounts of money at stake (college professors DO NOT make lots of money). So it's a game where we all know each other very well and trust each other implicitly (except for when we lie about what we mucked!).

Food and beverages were never an issue: people do tend to bring their own. But when we started playing, after a month of crappy plastic chips and bicycle cards, we wanted better stuff. As banker and host, I researched stuff on the net and quickly found that I personally could not afford to buy even dice chips for the game. (And two years ago, even the crappy chips cost twice what they do now!) So I proposed a chip fund. At the end of the night, I would put what I called the chip fund envelope on the table, and anyone who wished to could put some of their winnings (or even extra money if they had some burning a hole in their pockets!) in the envelope. No one EVER had to put any money into the chip fund. And soon enough we had enough money to buy decent chips and KEMs. By the way, as soon as we had a barely adequate number of chips and a deck of KEMs, everyone was gung-ho about getting a second chip fund going to get more chips and a few more decks!

Now I suppose that in the eyes of the law, this could have been seen as a rake of some sort, but it was TOTALLY voluntary. And for the benefit of the game, not for any individual. Indeed, the game eventually moved from my house to someone else's, and I am no longer the banker. And the chips and cards moved with the game. Again, I'm no lawyer, so I'm not sure of the legality, but it sure was a fast and easy way for a regular steady group of players to get a decent set of chips.

Just thought I'd toss this out here as an idea for others -- I read so much here (especially on Home Poker) that I use and enjoy, that I thought I'd try to give some back.

Now if only I could persuade my home game that what we REALLY need is a set of Ten's Egyptians....

tubalkain · #2 03-16-2005, 01:22 AM

As long as it was completely voluntary and not mandatory, then I can't see how it would be illegal. Still, before trying it here, I'm going to call the local gambling commissioner (from a payphone) and ask to be sure.

TenPercenter · #3 03-16-2005, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now if only I could persuade my home game that what we REALLY need is a set of Ten's Egyptians....

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more.

Seriously, did you mention who would "own" the chips once (if) the group broke up over time?

Ten

gr8vertical · #4 03-16-2005, 03:30 AM

That's a pretty good idea... Too bad my friends are cheap as hell [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

omar · #5 03-16-2005, 11:41 AM

Well, I wasn't planning on breaking the law, but I am hosting a tourney this weekend at my house. We plan to have 24-32 players and I have said in the flyer that a $5 charge for soft drinks, snacks, and pizza would be asked of every player in addition to the buy-in. I don't intend to make any money from this at all and if money is left over would just put it back into the pot. Now, I also host my regular game every other week (7-8 regulars) and I never do that, I just personally go out and buy cokes/chips/cheese, whatever just because I want to. I just thought that it could get expensive with the larger group. No one has objected yet as to the $5. I am very new to this poker thing but am so freakin' hooked that I have built a table ($275), bought 1000 cheap chips (dice, about $140 with shipping), labels for the cheap cheaps from Jason ($50) 4 decks of KEM cards (~$45, even though I received crappy blemished cards) and even 3 different sets of clay chip samples (~$50). SO I am into this thing for over $500 in about 2 months and now I am jonesing for set of Ten's new Paulson Pharoah's but I have to stop the madness somewhere. So, I just figured that a $5 house charge for my tournament refreshments instead of funding it myself would keep my wife out of my a** for a little while anyway.

Anyone thing that the house charge is totally out of whack?

TenPercenter · #6 03-16-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have said in the flyer that a $5 charge for soft drinks, snacks, and pizza would be asked of every player in addition to the buy-in. I don't intend to make any money from this at all and if money is left over would just put it back into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know specifics about your area, but in general its still illegal. If you require anyone to post any extra money other than what goes into the pot and comes out as direct winnings, it's illegal. From what I've read, even a donation jar on the bar makes it illegal, if gambling is going on that night.

That said, it's also completely normal. At my old weekly poker game (prior to this craze) I always had good refreshments for everyone too. And many people would hand me $5 a night, but I didn't ask for it. It was a normal thing, an appreciation for all the money I spent of food/drinks every week. Now it just "seems' wrong to accept it since I've researched and found that it makes me a "gambling house." [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Ten

omar · #7 03-16-2005, 12:20 PM

Thanks, Ten. I had come across a website once that listed whether "soical gambling" was legal, and if so, what the specific laws were relative to each state. I think I may have found it over at Scott Keen's site, but I am not sure. I live in Arkansas, and it showed that any "gambling" at all was illegal in the state. Clearly, there are tons of home games going on and I can't imagine that this is one of those laws that the cops are looking to enforce but at the same time it is not beyond comprehension that someone would say something to somebody, etc, etc, and the next thing you know the we get "busted". That would not be a good thing for me in the community (to say the least). SO, I think I'll continue to host poker games, but figure a different way to fund the peanuts.

Thanks again. Gotta love this site!

TN_POKER_MAN · #8 03-16-2005, 04:16 PM

I wouldn't worry about it.

Next time just don't say that its mandatory...wink wink.

bolgenmod · #9 03-17-2005, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now if only I could persuade my home game that what we REALLY need is a set of Ten's Egyptians....

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more.

Seriously, did you mention who would "own" the chips once (if) the group broke up over time?

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

We seriously never thought about who would get the chips. Like I said, we're a pretty close group, not just friends, but couples and relatives, living in a small town where dinner parties and poker games are most of our social life, so I guess we figure the game will just keep going. Besides, at this point, we've played for 2 years with our $450 investment, so I at least consider that I've gotten my money's worth, even if (god forbid) the game broke up tomorrow.

And I do really lust after both your sets of Egyptians -- I got a sample set of the Chipco Egyptians with an extra $100 chip I use as a protector. And the Pharoh's Club chips look gorgeous -- I guess I'll be getting another sample set. I wish I had an extra $1000 (hell, even an extra $500!). Oh well.

But I do love to dream, and I really appreciate all the work you've done, and not just once, but twice!

VinnyTheFish · #10 03-17-2005, 09:27 AM

Here is what we have done over the past 10 months. We started with 1 Octagon table and 1 case of chips. As we started playing and the games got bigger, we had to do something.

When you leave, if you won 63, you only took 60. At times, guys won 235 and only took 220. What ever was left over at the end of teh night was put "in a jar." After time, that jar money was then used to buy Kem's, 2 more chip sets and 2 more tables. It adds up fast.

Our game is mixed, bussiness men, teachers, college kids, the local pizza workers ... so who ever can leave a few, leaves a few. We all bring stuff, soda, water, pizza, what ever.