from an Ed Miller quiz...

[Jake (The Snake)]

The opponents in the hand are poor, live game players.

Preflop:

UTG raises, 3 cold call, Hero calls in SB with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], BB folds.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to player on your right who bets. Pot is 12SB now.

Ed advocated a slowplay here. Here are my questions:

1. How big does the pot have to be for you to raise here?

2. Would you still just call if this was Party 2/4? Assume the other 4 are around 30/6/1.2. How big would the pot have to be then?

[flytrap]

I raise here, just because the better may not bet the turn, but may in fact be betting with a draw. I would hate to not have the chance to raise the turn. If they have a gutshot, they will call one bet on the turn. If the bettor has a strong enough hand to bet the turn after getting called, he probably would have gone for a check raise on the flop. Also, I realize the concept of 'you'll only get hands you want in there to fold' but I don't think it's that relavent here. It's unlikely the preflop raiser or cold-caller have a pair of twos, which would fold to your flop raise, and it's unlikely they have a 4, since there is only 1 left, and is small enough that a raiser and cold-caller wouldn't figure to have it. If they have a k, they will stay in on the flop even with the raise, likely making it 3 bets. A flop raise may get a gutshot to fold. Of course if you're pretty certain utg will bet again on the turn, due to pokertracker stats or the like, then wait until the turn, but I find this line from utg is often a draw that is trying to build a big pot on the flop, but slows down when it misses on the turn.

[Lurkmaster Flex]

I raise here also, on a rainbow flop it's a lot easier to advocate the non-raise.

[Baloosh]

4 opponents, and you're not folding any flush draws, regardless of how many bets you put in on the flop. You want people drawing to 2 pair to stay in.

Given the read of poor, live game players, I'd slowplay as well, allowing them to have an opportunity to make a good, second-best hand.

1. If my read were that most of the players left were LAGs, then I'd raise here -- hoping to start a raising war, because raising is fun. I'm not sure exactly what "poor" means when defining these players, but I would assume it means they play too many hands, and go too far with them (not necessarily that they're LAGs).

2. 30/6/1.2 means loose, and not aggressive. Even at Party 2/4, I'd probably slowplay the flop here as well.

I think the general cutoff point when we stop trying to slowplay and begin to win the pot at all costs is around 20SB, which equals 10BB -- enough for gutshots (A3o, etc.) to correctly stay in.

[Argus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
The opponents in the hand are poor, live game players.

Preflop:

UTG raises, 3 cold call, Hero calls in SB with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], BB folds.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to player on your right who bets. Pot is 12SB now.

Ed advocated a slowplay here. Here are my questions:

1. How big does the pot have to be for you to raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Not too much bigger than it is now. I'd say if it was even 16 SB I'd raise. There's a possible wheel draw out there, and players with a KxQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or KxA[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] would like to see the turn. Especially with live players any pair might call hoping to make two pair. These hands are likely to call incorrectly because they don't realise the strength of your hand even if you check/raise. In a smaller pot they might not make this call. There's quite a difference in what calls you between offering 7:1 and 9.5:1.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
2. Would you still just call if this was Party 2/4? Assume the other 4 are around 30/6/1.2. How big would the pot have to be then?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm even more likely to slowplay at Party 2/4; I don't know if the pot could get big enough without another preflop raise to make me want to raise. The only thing you can protect your hand from is a backdoor flush/straight, or a gutshot. Everything else is either getting such slim odds that you aren't concerned about allowing them to stay in the pot, or can call profitably even for two bets. My strategy in this hand is just to try to get as many bets from as many players as possible and hope my hand is good at showdown. FWIW, once my flop check/raise of PFR whiffed I'd lead any turn.

[cnfuzzd]

i have to believe you got this flop incorrect. I want a link please...

peace

john nickle

[Jake (The Snake)]

link

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
link

[/ QUOTE ]


&lt;sigh&gt; one day, i will be as cool as people who want to be as cool as ed miller.

peace

john nickle

[W. Deranged]

Jake,

This is very interesting, in my opinion.

I was having a hard time realizing why it wasn't correct to lead this flop, until I realized:

1. If I lead and get raised by the UTG player (who might have AK or something like that), many opponent with hands I want to stay in (88, A4, K9 maybe, even random one-A hands and so forth) may well drop on the flop. These opponents are all drawing to runners against me and by the fund. thm. of poker I really want them seeing the turn as they are not getting odds to do so.

1a. Betting and getting raised on the flop will mean that a much higher proportion of players calling are those who actually have the odds to do so: the flush draws. Many K's will come along anyway, but since many kings will bet/raise this flop anyway we can get value from their hands passively by checking here.

2. If we bet out and don't get raised we may get a bunch of callers and a lot of flop value but we may be able to get a similar number of bets in by checking and we don't lessen our ability to check-raise the turn and/or protect our hand on future streets.

Once the bet comes from late position I think a call becomes right for the above reasons as well.

It seems that the key driver for a slowplay here is that the pot is in an intermediate state where it is not yet big enough to merit attacking with guns blazing but it is still big enough that aggressive flop play will only encourage your opponents to "back into" correct theoretical play. If it were tiny and we could get the small flush draws to make bad flop calls or big enough to merit fighting for completely I would think a different line would be merited.

I think that if it were 4.5 Sb or smaller pre-flop we could get bad calls from flush draws (if we check to a late position bettor who bets and we check-raise, flush draws will be wrong to call two cold given we have a set).

I think that we are close to the upper bound for this range. At 15-16 BB (this is simply an instinctual number) I would have to think we need to start attacking.

This is interesting [censored].

It's strange to me that when I first started playing this game this seemed like an auto slowplay. Then, as I learned more I began to instinctively hate slowplays like this. Now, as I learn even more, I can understand why the positional/pot size subtleties of this hand push it back toward the direction of a slowplay.

P.S. I haven't read Ed's link yet so I may sound totally clueless and/or (hopefully) repetitive.

[feelixthegreek]

Some off the cuff thoughts:

This may be a pessimistic way of looking at it, but I think I'd raise here to build the pot, not necessarily to chase anyone away with draws, so that I get very good redraw odds on my boat if someone makes their straight or flush on the turn.

I also worry about a turn check-around.

Anyone advocate betting out on the flop? I suppose it depends on the PF raiser's level of aggressiveness, which in hindsight doesn't seem to be high, but I wonder if hero knew this going in.