Exploiting a TAG...?

[ArturiusX]

PFR is a TAG, 18/12, I datamined 120 hands on him. Very aggro. Might be an overzealous 2+2er. He probably doesn't know I'm a TAG/2+2er.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

I could easily fold/peel or whatever to a 3-bet. Planning to pop on any non A/K turn. How'd I do?

[Harv72b]

Given your position relative to the preflop raiser, I think you either caught him on a "change of pace" kind of hand that he raised with, or he's really not very good postflop. On a 2-suited, 2-connected, Q-high flop, you're going to c/r him about 0% of the time with a Q or flopped set, especially the latter when it ends up being HU. I'd put you on either a flush/straight draw or exactly what you had given your flop play here, and expect you to bet into me with a strong hand in the hopes I autoraise.

[JacksonTens]

Well done. But firstly I want to make a point that has made a huge impact on my play against good players. That is the strong TAG and weak TAG. Clearly what you were playing was a weak TAG. Weak TAGs simply fold far too easily, at small stakes who bet/folds the flop? To me that just says "Bluff me for the rest of the session". I've seen absolute LPAs dominate weak TAGs, on this principle alone. Let me know if I'm missing the point, but I think you did a great job on pushing the TAG off his hand and folding him, but I wouldn't have folded, its just bad metagame.

JT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[ArturiusX]

Not even metagame, most TAG raising hands should really peel my raise.

I figured he had AJ or something similar, but the fold was out of the blue.

[mr pink]

i'd usually just bet into him.

could you explain why you went for the check/raise here? like if it goes: you check, TAG bets, 1 call, 1 fold, i guess your action would be???

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Not even metagame, most TAG raising hands should really peel my raise.

I figured he had AJ or something similar, but the fold was out of the blue.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he knows you have 77 of course he should peel, but he doesn't know that. Another poster said that most players wouldn't c/r the flop with a set/2pair type hand. That is way off base. I'd c/r a queen here every time, especially if I think there's anychance of getting him to fold a hand with 6 outs, and I don't mind getting the hitch hikers to tag along.

And BTW, if he has AJ w/out a spade, and is putting you on two random spades, a good player knows that YOU are the favorite in the hand (since your pair outs are also good), not him. That combined with the possibility that you were setting up to c/r the field with a big hand (even something like QJ) makes this a pretty easy fold for AJ. That isn't being weak, its being smart.

Somebody mentioned TAG-tight and TAG-weak. The latter doesn't exist, unless they are only TAG preflop. A true TAG recognizes when its time to give up, and does so. If i'm this guy I want you to think you can bully me, because when I know I have the best of it, i'm going to punish you for having the wrong perception of me. Be careful trying to push good players out of pots, normally if it works you were infront (and you gain very little), and when it doesn't it costs you a lot.

lf

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Another poster said that most players wouldn't c/r the flop with a set/2pair type hand. That is way off base. I'd c/r a queen here every time, especially if I think there's anychance of getting him to fold a hand with 6 outs, and I don't mind getting the hitch hikers to tag along.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are doing this on a draw-heavy flop with the PFR directly on your left and two limpers to your right, you need to rethink your flop strategy. You make money by setting your opponents up to make -EV plays, not by pumping the pot to make it correct for them to draw out on you.

[feelixthegreek]

I'm trying to put myself in UTG+1 shoes and think about what I would raise PF and throw away like that. AJ no spade? 99 no spade?

You had stats on him, but did he seem to be running good or bad at the time of this encounter? It seems like a fatalistic fold made in anger.

BTW: I'd make the same play.

[molawn2mo]

IMHO, I think Harv and Pink have it right. SOP, here, ought be to bet out with the expectation that TAG will raise and clear the field.

As played, I suppose that you could release this pretty easily if TAG leads and is callled or raised in 1 or more places. As far as taking down the hand, it appears that you caught Villain with the AT, AJ, KJ hands that a TAG might release. In fact, as played, if TAG has you beat and he seems more likely to either have you beat or outdraw you, you are in an uncomfortable spot if he calls the turn raise or 3 bets it.

How do you proceed after Villain calls or 3 bets the flop?

Also, Pink asked you a theoretical question... It is a good question and one that you should try and answer. If you have trouble answering his question, it may because he has pointed out an error in your logic. Not coming down on you... Just raising a point.

[chief444]

I'd like the check/raise better if it weren't 4-handed on the flop. HU or 3-handed you could expect UTG+1 to pretty much autobet anything he raised pf with and check/raising a smaller pair is a pretty common play on any board that likely missed him. But I think in this case the flop bet means you're likely behind. Now if you think he'll fold 88-JJ then I can see it but you didn't mention anything about that and I think your play is fairly transparent...as Harv said.