Quick poll: what's your play on the flop?

[Derek in NYC]

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I think it really comes down to what you think BB's 3-betting range is here. All that was given was that he was a TAG, so I assumed it was a big range...as it should be.

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Please list the hands you think the BB should three-bet from this position, and those that he should call with.

[chesspain]

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And he's not going to check an ace on the turn.

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Right, so why would you call to an ace on the turn? Whereas I believe folding is the best option, at least raising (with the plan to put no more money into the pot) gives him a chance to fold QQ/KK.

Consequently, calling a turned ace has to be the worst of the three options.

[chief444]

As in Meeps specific hand that this came from...you're on the button...there's one loose/generally bad limper...the Blinds are tight.

What do you raise with preflop? I think it's this exact situation...or I should say the failure to recognize how many hands are profitable in this exact situation...that makes the difference between a lot of 6-9% pfr players here and the 10-12% pfr players here.

This is all very relative to the discussion anyway. But I'm very curious.

Let's do it like this:

1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?
2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?
3) Pocket pairs...which?
4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?
5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's
6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

Give me an idea where you draw the line.

[chief444]

OK Derek,

And again...this is under the assumption that meep, who has been posting a while now and plays well I'm sure, has the range I think he has on the button. I don't remember playing with him though so I'm not sure. But this would be like an 11-12% pfr who's aware of situations and position.

My 3-betting range includes ATo+, A8/A9s+, 77+ and probably even 66, KJs, KQ....and I think these all should fair well against meeps range and very well against the loose limper's range. But that's why I just posted the other question in this thread. To get a better idea of what people in general are raising with on the button here.

And Chesspain...I don't mind folding an ace turn. I said call for a couple of reasons...One, a lot of opponents will give up on the river after you call the turn. Some opponents I know I can call the turn and fold the river if they bet again here (although that's not really the case here). Two, if he folds he probably just folded a two outer. This is why I said call and not raise but you're probably right that folding is fine. I'm probably overestimating the ranges thinking BB is a good TAG and not just...as TT put it...a tight/aggressive player.

OK, I'm off to play.

Chief

[chesspain]

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One, a lot of opponents will give up on the river after you call the turn. Some opponents I know I can call the turn and fold the river if they bet again here (although that's not really the case here).

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Exactly...no hand which beats TT is folding to a brick river card. In fact, better hands without an ace may well just check-call the river, just to make sure that they get to showdown for one more bet.



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Two, if he folds he probably just folded a two outer.

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I don't understand. He bet the turn. How can he fold to your call?

[Derek in NYC]

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As in Meeps specific hand that this came from...there's one loose/generally bad limper...the Blinds are tight.

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Meep's original problem provided no reads on either the limper or the blinds. If the limper was bad/tight and the blinds were tight, I would agree with you that the button's standards can relax. However, as a default position, I think both assumptions are erroneous (esp. the part about the blinds being tight).

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1) Ax offsuit....what does x need to be?

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Assuming a normal limper and blind, I would not raise with less than ATo.

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2) Ax suited....what does x need to be?

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I would not raise with less than A9s or A8s, and if I thought there was a good chance the blinds would call anyhow, I would probably overlimp.

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3) Pocket pairs...which?/

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I would raise 99 or higher, limp with 77-88 (assuming normal blinds), and fold 66 or below.

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4) Suited connectors...which xy and up?

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I would fold most non-broadway suited connectors, except for 9Ts, which I would limp with.

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5) Kx/Kxs...what are the x's

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I would fold king-rag, regardless of whether suited or not, including K9s.

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6) What about...Q9o, J8s, K8o? Do these look absurd or do these at least look close?

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I would fold all of these hands.

In looking at the differences between the way you would proceed and I would proceed, you seem to be assuming that a raise is successful at isolating the limper. This just isn't true in most of the games I play, particularly live games. In the 10/20 games I play live, most BB will play with any two cards, and most SBs will play with any two suited cards. (And thats not much of an exaggeration). I havent played full ring online in a very long while, but I'd be surprised if low limit blinds would fold out very often to a button raise.

Also, I agree with Chesspain about 4th street scare cards. Calling an overcard to the board is the worst of the 3 options. Raising the turn might work to fold out hands like KK, QQ, AJ, etc. but frankly I dont think this works often enough against most opponents to be worth trying. On a 4th street A, K, Q overcard, I'm very inclined to fold.

Finally, despite all of my comments about giving the BB credit for a big hand based on the three-bet, after the initial limper folds, I'd give very serious consideration to capping preflop. I know that it seems inconsistent with everything I've just posted about how the BB is likely to have a real hand, but in my opinion, with hands like 99-JJ, it is best to define your hand as early as possible so you can make a decision about whether to get away from the hand before 4th street. Taking this approach gets away from one of the often-posted methods here on 2p2 that I just hate, namely the raise 4th street but fold to a 3-bet line.

[SmileyEH]

1) All aces except lower than A3o.
2) All of them
3) All, maybe not dueces.
4) 98s and up, lower if i'm bored
5) K8s+
6) I'd isolate with all of those

My PFR at a full table is around 13.

-SmileyEH

[SmileyEH]

You are leaving a lot of money on the table with this range Derek. You can loosen up a lot.

-SmileyEH

[feelixthegreek]

From a defensive standpoint, I raise the flop so I can fold to a turn check/raise (a fairly common move from AA/KK/QQ here)instead of a turn 3 bet.

[Derek in NYC]

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1) All aces except lower than A3o.
2) All of them
3) All, maybe not dueces.

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I cannot believe it is correct to autoraise the button with ace rag suited, or A4o+ after a MP limper. Similarly, I can't believe it is correct to raise small pairs in the same situation.

With small pairs, you're likely to be an undercard to the board in a 3-4 way pot. Even with your superior position, you can't outplay the field enough to make a button raise +EV.

W/r/t raising ace-rag, you're essentially playing with 1 card. If an ace hits the board, you're way ahead most times, so fine (though you wont get much action because of your preflop raise). Your sidecard is basically useless, and suffers from all of the problems that raising a small pair into a multiway field does.

I cant believe this is best practice TAG button play in this situation; it smells a lot more like LAG preflop under the mistaken belief that you can "outplay the competition"