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  #1  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:18 PM
Tru Tru is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Default ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

My read on MP1 is that he's nothing special. The raise by MP2 is a legitimate hand. He's tight. I have to put him on JJ or better or maybe AK, AQ.

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t60 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t1425)
UTG+1 (t530)
MP1 (t855)
MP2 (t810)
Hero (t1090)
CO (t980)
Button (t2350)
SB (t830)
BB (t1130)

Preflop: Hero is in MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, <font color="red">MP2 raises t100</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>

Flop: (t90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">MP2 bets t140</font>, Hero calls t140

Turn: (t90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks

River: (t90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">MP2 bets t125</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t250</font>.....

I'm looking for comments on all streets as I think that they are all up for debate.
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:36 PM
KingDan KingDan is offline
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Posts: 139
Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

I think you played this pretty crappily on all streets.
I reraise pf.

If you wanna slowplay flop we call flop. Bet turn make him pay off his ace or draw or whatever. If he has [censored] hes not paying you anyway.

Why minraise river?
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:47 PM
ZBTHorton ZBTHorton is offline
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Posts: 56
Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

Re-Raise PF.

If we ignore that:

If you slowplay, BET THE TURN
If you don't slowplay, BET THE TURN.

The min-raise on the river is really bad. Raise the pot, or push, or raise big, or whatever. Bottom line is you shouldn't put yourself in that position anyway.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:35 PM
Tru Tru is offline
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Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

If I raise the turn, I'm only pushing out weak hands, and folding hands that are scared of the Ace. True, I'm making a diamond draw pay, but given his line, he obviously doesn't have an Ace, and is scared of the card. If he had a strong hand, he wouldn't have made such a small flop bet (fearing a flush draw). I feel that with my line, I at least extract some value out of hands like KK or KQ, hence the value raise on the end. If a diamond would have come off, I obviously would not have min raised.

He ended up paying me off with KK. I feel like I got the max out of his hand and I didn't put big money in when I was behind (preflop).

ZBTHorton, I think your logic about betting the turn is correct most of the time. Given the range that I put MP2 on, the river raise was for value as it could look like a diamond draw that missed.

Obviously, I posted this hand because I'm not sure of myself, completely. Can you please give me your logic for betting the turn if I put him on a weaker hand then a set.
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:50 PM
KingDan KingDan is offline
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Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

The extra 125 chips or whatever you get out of [censored] hands doesn't make up for the extra you make (or prevent from losing) when he has a flush draw or an ace.
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:30 PM
async async is offline
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Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

Interesting. I read the whole hand, and then decided that if your range (JJ+, AK, maybe AQ) was correct, the only hand that could have played the hand that way was KK. (Or maaaaybe AK, but I though AK would have bet the turn, as would AA, and JJ would have gone ahead and checked the river)

I think I'd have bet the turn, but you have an apparent read on his flop bet than indicates he has no Ace, in which case I think your play is fine. Against most opponents I'm going to re-raise pf, but if your read on his range is accurate then I like your smooth call here, because you're way behind 40% of the time preflop, and only about a coinflip another 30% or so of the time.

Of course, I don't play 109s yet, so my viewpoint is questionable anyhow. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:32 PM
async async is offline
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Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

[ QUOTE ]
The extra 125 chips or whatever you get out of [censored] hands doesn't make up for the extra you make (or prevent from losing) when he has a flush draw or an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Hero's "range" for Villains hand is accurate, he can't have a flush draw. I completely agree if hero is not quite certain about the range. But for him to have raised and now have a flush draw on the flop, he has to have ranged with KdJd or worse, and that's pretty far from "AK, maybe AQ+, or JJ+".
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  #8  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:35 PM
ZBTHorton ZBTHorton is offline
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Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise the turn, I'm only pushing out weak hands, and folding hands that are scared of the Ace. True, I'm making a diamond draw pay, but given his line, he obviously doesn't have an Ace, and is scared of the card. If he had a strong hand, he wouldn't have made such a small flop bet (fearing a flush draw). I feel that with my line, I at least extract some value out of hands like KK or KQ, hence the value raise on the end. If a diamond would have come off, I obviously would not have min raised.

He ended up paying me off with KK. I feel like I got the max out of his hand and I didn't put big money in when I was behind (preflop).

ZBTHorton, I think your logic about betting the turn is correct most of the time. Given the range that I put MP2 on, the river raise was for value as it could look like a diamond draw that missed.

Obviously, I posted this hand because I'm not sure of myself, completely. Can you please give me your logic for betting the turn if I put him on a weaker hand then a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how your dissecting your hands, and that will always help you later in your development as a player, but I think your overthinking this a little.

You've got the best hand on the turn. With alot of chips already in the middle, it's time to make a bet. Even if you take down the pot now, your still doing well. By not betting you allowed any donkey w/ KJ to now have you beat. A diamond could have come. Lots of bad cards can show.
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  #9  
Old 12-26-2005, 08:52 PM
yvesaint yvesaint is offline
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Location: sittin on my 6xbuy-in stack
Posts: 690
Default Re: ($109) Too passive a line, or just right?

the point of betting the turn is not to "protect" from a flush draw (unless hes a real donk, cant see how he'd have one here)

its to

1. get more in the pot for a bigger river pot = bigger river value bet
2. he will call a turn bet here, but less often a river raise, as it looks exactly like you slowplayed
3. it gives him another opportunity to come over the top if he does have something like AQ, even AK.
4. if he has no reads on you, a diamond/broadway card could possibly kill YOUR action, scaring HIM. he doesnt know you wouldnt call pf with KQd.
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