Omaha/8: Raising before the flop

[sammy_g]

Ray Zee in his book says that raising before the flop in Omaha/8 doesn't add much to your profits, but greatly increases your variance.

Badger on his site says this:

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In most Omaha games a critical and basic concept is to get more money in before the flop when you have way the best of it. The most obvious profit in Omaha comes from opponents calling on the turn when drawing dead. This happens reasonably often but the profit that occurs every single hand, the most common way to create a profitable edge is to exploit the dramatically different pre-flop value of Omaha starting hands. Most Omaha games feature players who play too many garbage hands 789T, 23QJ and even J965. In many games, these mistakes occur before the flop all the time. This is where the money is to be made. Since the opportunities arise almost every hand, this is where you increase your profits hugely in Omaha.

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I was wondering what you all though about this subject. Since Zee's book is for advanced players, I suspect he is writing for tighter games where people don't play these junk hands. Badger is writing about loose games where people enter pots with trash. I suspect Badger's advice is correct for these loose, low-limit games.

Here is the link for Badger's Omaha Myths page: http://www.playwinningpoker.com/omaha/omaha1.html

[L0QTiS]

I will sometimes raise the following preflop hands depending on game conditions, skill of players involved, etc. Do not take this as a guideline to always raise with these hands.

The following is my opinion, subject to debate, criticism, alcohol, change of mind, and acts of god. This is by no means a complete list.

A23x/s/ds and A24s/ds from the blinds or Button
Purpose: get more $ in preflop

AA34s/ds, AA35ds - from MP to CO
Purpose: drive out other A3 or A4 hands and to give my high hand potential a better chance with fewer in. In late position, you can sometimes 'buy the button' by raising to give you more favorable overall position. In some cases this has no effect if you can't drive some out.

AKK2s/ds or AKK3ds from MP to CO
Purpose: Same as above but somewhat more situational - I think it's important to make distinctions between the two hands.

Consider a limp re-raise
A23x/s/ds or A24s/ds, AA23ds, A234s/ds

Occasionally, but less frequently raise
2345x/s/ds, QQA2s/ds, QQA3s/ds, AKsQJ and other high hands of this type.
Purpose: Mix-it-up - not much purpose if there's a high turnover of opponents. You want this seen in some cases to advertise that you don't always raise with A23X or AA2X.

[Beavis68]

I am basically in Rays camp. Badger I believe is talking about PL mostly.

I will usually only raise from around back with A23 type hands, when there are a lot of limpers I know will stay in.

I like pots with LOTS of callers in hi/lo, they are very forgiving.

[sammy_g]

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Badger I believe is talking about PL mostly.

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He is talking about limit.

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I like pots with LOTS of callers in hi/lo, they are very forgiving.

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Well, Badger does recommend doing this only from late position with a hand like A23x. With this hand in early position, you just call to encourage limpers. He talks about raising to thin the field with AAxx-type hands, though.

The idea is these hands scoop or win a piece of the pot much more often than the random hands many people play. Raising gets more money in the pot when you have more than your share of pot equity.

[Buzz]

Sammy - The tactics an expert employs probably have something to do with the level of the game and the way opponents are playing - but they also simply have to do with the style of play of the expert. When you watch TV coverage of experts playing poker, one thing that becomes evident is that different highly successful players have different highly successful styles of play.

Which style is better? I think usually raising before the flop works well for some and not for others. I think that's true in Texas hold 'em and I think it's true in Omaha-8.

What seems generally foolish to me is raising befor the flop only with or mainly with certain types of hands, like A2XX from late position and the blinds and raising with AAXX from early position - or always raising regardless of position with either or both of these hands. The reason it seems foolish to me is that I'm often able to read an opponent who raises only with or mainly with certain types of hands.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[iblucky4u2]

I'm not in the class of Ray Zee or Badger, but I am a winning low limit O/8 player. I find that by mixing up what I do works best for me. That includes raising with a variety of hands including high only hands, and, depending on the nature of a specific game, raising from various positions.

In Florida at the Indian casinos they play a $2 straight game where all streets are $2. In some of these games, you will have 7, 8 or even 9 players seeing a flop for multiple bets - just Omaha heaven. In a tighter game I normally will not raise A23x or A24x in early position. In the looser games, I don't mind raising. I might lose 1 or 2 players but will still get 6 or 7 way action from hands like 45JQ rainbow.

The secret, IMHO, is to not be in either camp as a rule, but to be aware of the nature of the game you are playing in. If tight, don't be so aggressive. If loose, go for it with a variety of hands.

[sammy_g]

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When you watch TV coverage of experts playing poker, one thing that becomes evident is that different highly successful players have different highly successful styles of play.

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True. Most televised poker is no limit hold'em, however. Since expert players can manipulate pot odds and make more "plays" in no limit, many styles are successful. In limit hold'em, more often than not, one play is clearly best.

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Which style is better? I think usually raising before the flop works well for some and not for others. I think that's true in Texas hold 'em and I think it's true in Omaha-8.

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Buzz, you're an expert Omaha player. I'm a beginner. I'll have to defer to your opinion about Omaha. That said, not raising with your premium hands in limit hold'em is a serious leak.

For instance, say you are on the button and four players limp in front of you. You look down and see AQs. Just calling here is a horrible error! You absolutely must raise in this spot. You have way more than your share of pot equity. You have to punish those players who limped with junk.

Perhaps I'm misapplying hold'em concepts to Omaha. (It certainly would not be the first time.) What I'm beginning to notice is that limit hold'em is a game of pushing small edges. In Omaha, you frequently have very large edges, and often opponents drawing dead or drawing to one out will happily call your bets and raises. Thus, it might not be so important to push smaller edges preflop in Omaha.

Still, if you are in late position with a hand that scoops twice as often as the randomish hands people limped with in front of you, I don't see how not raising can be correct. Aren't you leaving money on the table? Why not get your money in when you have the best of it?

[playerfl]

i think it makes a big difference how loose the game is.

What makes loose games worth while is winning huge pots instead of medium pots. The way to get huge pots is to raise when you have good cards.

If you are not winning huge pots in a loose game then there is a good chance you are actually losing money due to suckouts and paying a lot to see the flop.

this is my simplistic view, but i havent' read anything to contradict it.

[Beavis68]

There are two purposes to raise, build a pot, or thin the field (at least pre-flop).

Depending on postition and table conditions, you will have varying amounts of success.

[Buzz]

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Still, if you are in late position with a hand that scoops twice as often as the randomish hands people limped with in front of you, I don't see how not raising can be correct. Aren't you leaving money on the table? Why not get your money in when you have the best of it?

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Sammy - You’re taking one side of the argument. I don’t want to take the other side of the argument.

Not that it matters much what I do, but in fact I intentionally vary my play.

I don’t think the success of AA or KK in Texas hold ‘em depends as much on the flop as AAKK does in Omaha-8.

I can hardly imagine anyone not playing AAKK, even non-suited, in an Omaha-8 ring game. Non-suited it’s not a premium hand (double suited it is) but I’d guess that it probably scoops twice as often as a random hand.

But playing Omaha-8, if the flop is
3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I’d rather have a random hand than
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

For the same flop in a Texas hold ‘em game, I’d rather have the pair of aces or pair of kings than a random hand.

I think you can make a good argument for raising before the flop with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and I think you can make a good argument for not raising before the flop with the hand.

To me, there are positional considerations, and also game-type considerations. I’m almost certainly going to see the flop with the hand. If an unknown opponent forces me to gamble by raising before the flop in a ring game, I’m going to accept the challenge (but not like it much) - but whether I raise or not with the hand simply depends on how I think the raise will effect on my opponents. Rightly or wrongly, I’m not going to be raising with the hand because it scoops twice as much as a random hand.

But that’s just me. That’s just my style.

There would be more impetus for raising before the flop with a premium hand like
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. There would be more impetus because the double suited hand has a much better chance of catching a playable flop than the non-suited hand. But even there whether I raised or not before the flop would depend on my position and what effect I thought the raise would have on my opponents.

But after a flop of 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I’m probably folding either one of those AAKK hands to a bet. See the difference? (I’m not going to be folding AA or KK to a bet after this flop in a Texas hold ‘em game).

But again, that’s just me.

Buzz