Hidden dead hand with strange opposition; thoughts?

[nate1729]

So, about a million strange things happened in this hand, and I want to see what people think about how, when, and if to push dead hands.

PartyPoker 10/20. A deuce brings it in; I have (Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] immediately after. Both queens and a five are dead. I complete. An 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] calls, as does the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (!) and the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (!!!), and then the deuce reraises (!!!!!). I call, the 8 folds, the 5 and Q call.

-Should I fold? Reraise in a desperate attempt to limit the field? Or, as I chose, call because my hand is still powerful and hidden, but be willing to get away from the hand if need be?

On fourth street, the Q becomes Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and is high, and bets. The reraising 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], having caught a 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], just calls, so I raise (with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] showing now); 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] calls, as do Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

-I can't imagine the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] reraising on third with KK or AA in the hole and not raising on fourth. And I don't think he's rolled, because I caught the case deuce, not that I can really put him on rolled-up deuces for a single reraise and call here without being revoltingly weak-tight. So I raised to put pressure on the others, especially QT, which *must* be a drawing hand or buried pair (or random crap, I suppose, but this is a solid or tight player, from what I can tell.) Thoughts? Is a single raise on this street enough pressure, or should I wait for a later street to raise?

On fifth street, Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] catches 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and checks. 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] catches 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and checks. I, now (Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], check, as does 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (surely one bet won't force anyone out, and I can't induce a raise from anyone else, right? Do I want to be betting that one lonely pair for value, especially given the last guy's three hearts and straight cards? I mean, I put him on a pair or two, not a big draw, given the dead cards and his action, but still.)

On sixth, Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] catches 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] catches 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I pair my door with the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] catches 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and checks. The others check to me, and I assume that my two pair are good (thank goodness they all have each other's cards) and bet. Only the QT74 folds.

I catch the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river, it's checked to me, I bet, and only 5787 calls. Turns out he improved on the river... from sevens up to eights up. MHIG.

-What about the value-bets on sixth and seventh? I think they're cut and dried, but are they?

-Please, please, any other thoughts on the hand? I just started integrating 10/20 into my game selection, so any help adjusting would be greatly appreciated.

-Also, is there any formatting help I can give when posting this stuff? I can only hope my narrative justifies the myraid plot twists of this hand.

Thanks in advance.

[jon_1van]

I have to think 3rd is a reraise or fold. With folding a strong favorite.

But I'm still working my way up to 10-20.

regarding the formatting :: I like how I do it (see "did I callstationize too quickly"). But I would prefer the BisonBison Hand converter but it seems like it is down for stud hands lately

[nate1729]

Thanks for the reply. I can see a strong argument for each of folding, calling, and raising. I was hesitant to raise for fear that I might get bets in while I was behind (to a big buried pair), while not driving out quality draws, all without good prospects of improvement. Meanwhile, the Q seems to be crippled, and who knows about the 5, and there's no law that says I'm behind to the 2, so should I really throw away my big concealed pair? If I recall 7CSFAP correctly, Sklansky says that AA is the only pair (almost) always to be played even if both the trip cards are dead, and that others should be played with caution if at all. I decided to file this one under "caution."

Oh, and one other thing I thought about: of all the possibilities for the Mysterious Reraising Deuce, big spades in the hole was something I gave a good deal of weight to, because spades were quite live; I thought perhaps he was a tricky player raising on the value of his live spades and big cards; after all, he was looking at two fives and a non-live queen against him. (I never did find out what he had.)

Thanks again.

[schroedy]

Well I will chime in here too.

I don't see your hand as "hidden."

You have to have something. You are not going to improve by tripping up. If you improve, it will be plainly visible.

[timmer]

Nate,

Since you asked, I think this is an almost sure fold. Unless you are against only the bring in

the only way I would play is with position (dead Last)

for the bring in 3 handed

the Q was an overcard.

numerious other up cards ar also duplicated

the spades were totally live on board and buried in my hand.

the opponents were almost all totally clueless.

otherwise it is a "ez el foldo" in my book.

timmer

[nate1729]

Timmer --

Thanks for the comments.

Not that this hand shouldn't be folded on third, but a few possible equities:

Qs 5s Qh 0.263
Tc Qd Jd 0.249
5c 9d 5h 0.204
As Js 2s 0.284

Qs 5s Qh 0.291
Tc Qd Jd 0.271
5c 9d 5h 0.194
Js 2s Jh 0.244

Qs 5s Qh 0.240
Tc Qd Jd 0.236
5c 9d 5h 0.195
As Ks 2s 0.329

[jon_1van]

you said both your queens were dead. Having a live Queen makes a big differencee

[nate1729]

oh, geez, I forgot to kill the queens. Damn.

[nate1729]

By the way, my equity, depending on what the others actually have, is between 19.5% and 22%, once you kill the last queen.

[bobman0330]

I incline to the fold here too. I don't mind the completion, as your hand will probably be a favorite HU. However, with many callers and a scary reraise, I think you and this hand need to part company. With a different hand, I might call just for the size of the pot, but you really can't improve this hand in one card, so cut your losses and get out.*

*This advice is doubly true if you've just started at 10/20 and need to control your established 3rd-street maniacal tendencies.