Top two pair runs into resistance

[Siegmund]

How far are you willing to go with two pair before you are sure a set has beaten you?

Action Poker $1/2, 9-handed. Loose table, lots of 5- or 6-way flops, about half the hands get raised by somebody preflop. No specific reads on the villains.

Hero has [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7: in the cutoff.

UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, button calls, SB folds, BB raises. Everybody calls.

(10.5 SB) Flop: [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3.

BB bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls,
<font color="red"> Hero raises </font> .. and now the fun starts:

Button reraises, BB caps, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn (12.5 BB): [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q

BB checks, <font color="red"> Hero bets </font>, Button raises, BB reraises.

Scary, but getting 9:1 on the full house draw if I am behind. So I see the river...

River (21.5 BB): [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A

At least the flush didn't come in. Maybe someone was on a draw.

BB bets....

I hate my chances - I doubt I win 5% of the time here - but it doesn't feel right to fold. The button might pop this though - worried I'll get soaked for 3 bets if I put in one.

Suggestions welcome on my line at any stage here.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Action Poker $1/2, 9-handed. Loose table, lots of 5- or 6-way flops, about half the hands get raised by somebody preflop. No specific reads on the villains.

...

I hate my chances - I doubt I win 5% of the time here - but it doesn't feel right to fold. The button might pop this though - worried I'll get soaked for 3 bets if I put in one.

[/ QUOTE ]

If preflop play is any indication of postflop play, I think you're stuck calling at least the first bet without a read (no reads makes it really tough). If it comes back to you for two more, then I can let go with more comfort.

If you had at least *SOME* sense of BB's raising standards, it would be tremendously helpful.

If they don't both show or if one of them shows crap or if either one folds this river, I'd send an email to check for collusion between BB and Button. I doubt that it would be found to be the case, but this is the type of situation where I wouldn't be exceedingly surprised to find it.

[bozlax]

I'd put BB on AA, maybe an overplayed QQ (what the hell was the C/R all about on the turn?). Button is probably a nutball playing AK?

So, I figure your line is good (I might have run screaming from the turn C/R, I guess) and on the river you should see a showdown as cheaply as possible (for the sake of your own sanity). Call the first bet (Button didn't cap the turn, so maybe you get lucky, here), but if it's two back to you get the hell out of this funhouse.

So, show us the rest of the hand...

[Siegmund]

Hero and button called the river. SB had pocket treys, button had KQs (no flush chances).

In retrospect I felt I might have seen this coming -- at these loose tables I've been seeing a LOT of raises out of the BB on any pocket pair when there are many limpers. Come to think of it, at Action Poker 1/2 tables, that's the most common seat to raise from, much more often than from the button! Weird.

I still don't know for sure if he has a set or just high pockets though. I'm comforted that there doesn't seem to be an easy way to escape.

[btspider]

fold PF.

[Siegmund]

I would have, unless I had been in the cutoff or button with a lot of limpers ahead of me.

Even here you don't think it's worth playing K7s? My current tendency is to go down to J9s/Q9s/K2s with this many limpers, J9s/K9s/Axs with fewer.

They are certainly marginal hands. Not that long ago I'd never have touched a suited king even on the button. Trying to be braver but not stupider. The results have been indifferent so far.

[elbuddha]

I think here it's an issue of the aggressiveness of the table. Small suited kings are playable from late position with lots of limpers in a loose and passive game. This game doesn't sound passive enough if half the hands are raised preflop.

[DoctorDrew]

Here's the problem with playing this hand:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&amp;fpart=1

If I play this, I'll play it in late position, I need a really loose table (6-8 people going to the flop), and all I really want is the flush. These are hands I turn into a Lee Jones Weak tightie and "LOOK for a reason to fold."

[btspider]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have, unless I had been in the cutoff or button with a lot of limpers ahead of me.

Even here you don't think it's worth playing K7s? My current tendency is to go down to J9s/Q9s/K2s with this many limpers, J9s/K9s/Axs with fewer.

They are certainly marginal hands. Not that long ago I'd never have touched a suited king even on the button. Trying to be braver but not stupider. The results have been indifferent so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

lots of limpers? this many limpers? there were two.

K9s would be alright if the button/blinds are passive. you absolutely cannot group K2s together with J9s. J9s is much better.

the check-3bet on the turn is your best time to fold, if you decide to fold. also, you don't always have 4 outs here, so if you think you are drawing, then discount some more.

[BriPlay]

the same reason that makes playing your hand a good play (lots of limpers) makes a raise with a pair from BB ok.
That said.. hard to get away from top two pair for the reason you mentioned (ie outs to fh).
i mighta laid off the bet on the turn..if button bets and BB raises you can reconsider your situation more easily

brian