When was I supposed to open the parachute?

Siegmund · #1 03-21-2005, 12:35 AM

Took a bit of a beating on this one, and would like to know just how far off base my thinking was.

Table as a whole has been tight (29% seeing flop on stats page). Villain has only been at table a couple orbits, and hasn't called attention to himself with any brilliant or stupid plays.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Some people like to open-raise 99. I havent had luck with that in early position. Didn't seem like reraising would get MP1 out.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Even after the raise should I bet this flop? What information can I gain by doing that? It's not like Villain is going to fold....

Felt I had to call. I am behind TT, JJ, KK, AA, AQ (36 hands) but ahead of AK and AJ (32) which most people are raising, and 88/77/ATs might be being raised too.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Same argument as last time. I am still behind queens and high pairs. He's less likely to still be betting an AK or AJ but I felt he could be one time in five.

River: (7.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

OK, the call on the river was probably stupid. I don't really believe there's a 1 in 8 chance he is STILL coming on hard with ace-high.

milesdyson · #2 03-21-2005, 12:42 AM

You should be raising preflop...

Aside from that, you should check raise this flop and lead the turn. As you said, you're about even money to be ahead of or behind MP2, and you'd like to get it heads up with only one overcard on board.

Obviously what you want to happen is you check raise, he calls, you bet the turn and he folds. An added bonus is that there's also a slight chance he folds a better hand (ie. TT or JJ). If he 3-bets the flop, you can fold there unless you feel you're getting enough from implied odds to make the call to spike the set on the turn. If he smooth calls and pops you on the turn, you can let go easily.

jba · #3 03-21-2005, 12:43 AM

you have a top 10 hand, you didn't show aggression once in the entire hand?

3 handed second PP uncoordinated raggedy board I will definitely bet out here.

edit spelling

FishHooks · #4 03-21-2005, 12:51 AM

raise preflop here? I have trouble playing these pocket pairs under Tens preflop, why raise? to buy an out or two? Most A's and K's call anyways in these microlimits. I usually just call with 9's hoping to spike a set and win a big pot. If you raise you dont really have a chance to win a big pot by spiking a set. Any thoughts....

I could possible seeing you raise in LP if someoene raises right in front of you with no limpers just to isolate but thats seems one of the only reason to really raise this hand preflop

UncleSalty · #5 03-21-2005, 01:02 AM

Fishooks, meet Miles. He knows more than you. Trust me.

-Salty

FishHooks · #6 03-21-2005, 01:06 AM

I wasn't saying he was wrong I was just wondering why to raise. I clearly stated i have trouble these mid pocketpairs freflop, I was in no way saying he was wrong.

milesdyson · #7 03-21-2005, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was just wondering why to raise. I clearly stated i have trouble these mid pocketpairs freflop

[/ QUOTE ]
99 can be a trouble hand - if you're not comfortable raising UTG with it because maybe it makes you feel tied to betting the flop or you're unsure of your play when there's an overcard or two up there, then it's fine to not raise this. The added value you're getting from the preflop raise may not be worth the value you're losing misplaying the hand postflop.

Raising 99 UTG is good at tight tables because people will fold good hands to your raise, and its good at loose tables because people will call terrible hands. For instance, the OP's table was running at 29% VPIP and was 8-handed. On average, hands were 3 or 4-handed. A raise here would usually get it 2 or 3-handed.

Another thing is that people underestimate the amount of good flops there are for 99 (no overcards or one overcard).

And finally, and probably most importantly, raising is fun.

UncleSalty · #8 03-21-2005, 01:26 AM

BTW, re-reading my post I realized that I came off as more of a smart-ass than I intended. Didn't mean to offend if I did. Welcome to the family...

-Salty

Siegmund · #9 03-21-2005, 01:28 AM

Checkraising the flop and seeing if Villain 3-bets is a good idea, I like it.

re your comments to fishhook, that's a common problem, I think -- when I openraise a marginal hand like 99 or ATs and get coldcalls, I am lost on the flop. I am only comfortable doing it in mid-position because then it has maybe a 50-50 chance of buying the button for me.

On the actual hand, villain had aces. My best guess is that he'd call the flop and pop the turn but that still saves me one big bet. (Worst case, I guess, is that he calls the flop and the turn, and only pops me on the river... and I come out even if I can put it down then.)

tiltaholic · #10 03-21-2005, 01:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
when I openraise a sweet, money taking hand like 99 or ATs and get coldcalls, I can't wait to see the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i fixed your post. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

change your perspective on these hands...it will help.
sometimes they lose (maybe even more than 50% of the time), but that is poker.