QQ: Still lost in these situations

[@bsolute_luck]

i hate these situations because i always get in my mind they are bluffing and pay off for no damn good reason.

i hate all lines that could be taken in this hand really. this probably isn't what i'd do in the hand, but check the turn. folding would be based on a read of a flush draw firing.

if it goes check/check on the turn, i don't know. i'm only folding busted flush draws really, so i'll probably check/call.

again i hate all the lines i use in these hands and usually end up paying off for fear of being bluffed off- gotta work on that.

[Angrymoog]

I don't know what games you're playing in, but checking the turn? No way.

You have to bet the turn because you like to get paid off by bottom or middle pair, and make a flush draw put some money in the pot when there is one.

Being afraid of a an overcard because you were called seems a little weak tight. Many players simply want to either take a card off to see if they hit their Ace, or will definitely call down all the way with a jack.

I think you lose alot of equity by giving up on the hand.

[HentaiGaijin]

It was recommend that I grunch more, so here goes.

Our possible actions:

Check-Fold: This would be an incredibly weak play. Folding a strong pair to one overcard is a good way to never win any big pots.

Check-Call: We're seriously OOP, so we could check and call a bet, but this doesn't help us gain any real useful btion about what we're up against. UTG+1 would likely check to Button who would bet. He could have a K or it could be a position bet. Either way, it doesn't help us win the hand.

Check-Raise: If we think Button might bet, this could be an effective way of folding UTG+1. Choosing to check-raise in this spot will require some reads on our opponents. Is UTG+1 likely to check through? Is Button likely to bet? Is UTG+1 likely to fold against two cold? This might be a good option if the answer seems to be yes.

Bet-Fold: Opening with a bet here is a possibility. I don't think it will get anyone to fold, but we could reasonably fold to a reraise.

Bet-Call: Again, we could lead out with the intention of calling a reraise. This is better than Bet-Fold, because we have a backdoor diamond flush draw. If we call a reraise we can decide whether to continue based on the turn card.

Considering these options, I like the line of trying for a check-raise on the flop if we think a bet from the button is likely. If not, we should lead out and call a reraise and decide or next step based on the turn card.

---

Based on your actions of leading out on the flop and turn you have two options on the river:

Bet- If we bet we'll likely only be called by a king. A reraise would be bad.

Check-Call- Many loose-passive players will bet on the end with very little, so we can call a bet behind us without necessarily fearing a king.

I like the line of a check-call on the river, folding if it's two to us.

[Angrymoog]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-Call- Many loose-passive players will bet on the end with very little, so we can call a bet behind us without necessarily fearing a king.

I like the line of a check-call on the river, folding if it's two to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when do passive players bet with weak holdings on the river? I think that would qualify them as a little less passive.

If our opponents were loose aggressive, i could definitely agree with check/call. But if youre really afraid of a King, why even continue after the flop gets called?

[HentaiGaijin]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when do passive players bet with weak holdings on the river? I think that would qualify them as a little less passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe my terminology is wrong? I'm talking about 40% VPIP players with low raise %s. These players seem to often bet the river when it is checked to them on the end. Weak holdings would mean bottom pair, weak kicker, etc.

They call you down because they want to show down their hand because "hey it might be good." They bet on the end because your check indicates weakness and they think their weak hand is suddenly good.

[Angrymoog]

Yes, Im aware of that type of player youre referring to. They like to call with anything, or bet if its checked to them. I don't think they qualify as passives. Theyre assuredly poor players, though. I would agree with you that check/call is a good option against these types.

What we dont know is if this was the type of player the OP was facing.

[Dave G.]

[ QUOTE ]
This would be an incredibly weak play. Folding a strong pair to one overcard is a good way to never win any big pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Our pair isn't "strong" at all. It's one pair, and it's not even top pair. A pair that's not top pair can never be considered "strong". I don't think my chances of winning a big pot in the future are going to disappear if I fold in this spot, since our chances of actually winning aren't all that great.

If a passive opponent bets at you here I think we can assume we're beaten. It's not my default play, and I wouldn't do it against an unknown, but if I have a good read on him, then I think ignoring that read is a great way to build a big pot with a second best hand. If you have a read, use it, don't throw your chips into a black hole.

There is no reason why folding this hand to a suitably predictable / passive opponent who has you drawing to 2 outs is "weak tight".

[Rev. Good Will]

hero bets for value, nice hand

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what I'd do...

Pre-Flop: Raise (well, duh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
Flop: Raise, two callers...that sucks (we can assume atleast one is on a flush)
Turn: Okay, phew no diamonds. Let's fire and see if somebody drops, okay [censored] they didn't.
River: 7, okay, my queens are looking good, I'd raise, if somebody lingerd along with a King, well that sucks, but with no aggression shown on any streets, I'd bet this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Thats one way. Sometimes it works, sometimes you pay off some guy with a king.

2. Another way is check/fold the flop.

3. Another way is bet/fold the flop and then check/fold the turn.

Pick 2 or 3 if you don't want to risk paying off the guy with the king rather nicely, which is probably about 1/2 the time with two callers who both call a flop bet after you raised preflop. The more people in the hand the greater the chance your beat. Heads up you bet all the way, 2 callers is borderline. Three flop callers and I check/fold the turn at most. If your going to bet the turn, your practically committing yourself to bet or call the river, and if your going to call the river, your usually better off bet/fold than check/call.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Our pair isn't "strong" at all. It's one pair, and it's not even top pair. A pair that's not top pair can never be considered "strong". I don't think my chances of winning a big pot in the future are going to disappear if I fold in this spot, since our chances of actually winning aren't all that great.

If a passive opponent bets at you here I think we can assume we're beaten. It's not my default play, and I wouldn't do it against an unknown, but if I have a good read on him, then I think ignoring that read is a great way to build a big pot with a second best hand. If you have a read, use it, don't throw your chips into a black hole.

There is no reason why folding this hand to a suitably predictable / passive opponent who has you drawing to 2 outs is "weak tight".

[/ QUOTE ]

1. He's talking about on the river, so you're not drawing to two outs anymore.
2. Hentai was talking about on the river, if you checked and villain bet he could be betting a multitude of hands which are losers to your strong pair. Even LP's do this. It usually means they have at least a pair, and hope you've been betting down with overcards.
3. Second pair is still a very strong holding, especially when the overcard is a K. Kings are folded more often then Aces pre-flop.
4. With 9BB's in the pot he only has to be good 10% of the time to make the call on the river worth it.

KO