Top 2 Pair: Villain Pushes, I go all in over the top

#1 07-30-2005, 01:27 AM

Problems with the hand converter again. My stack was down to $38 due to a bonehead reraise with AQ that missed a flop maybe two or three hands before.

CO is the villain. No read on villain, except that he has played all five hands he has been at the table for and bought in short-stacked. MP1 is above average for Party $50 NL, in my view. Tight starting requirements, more aggressive than average (you all would probably still think of him as weak, though).

I'm curious to know whether the consensus is whether I should have folded to, called or reraised villain's push.

As a secondary question--QJs is a "trouble hand" I have only just begun playing again (see my long essay to newbies post). Anybody think a pre-flop fold was in order?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $50 .50 BB (10 handed) converter

BB ($49.95)
UTG ($46.40)
UTG+1 ($48.75)
UTG+2 ($20.10)
MP1 ($17.10)
MP2 ($76.09)
MP3 ($121.05)
CO ($23.50)
Hero ($38.74)
SB ($65.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50, MP1 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $0.5, CO raises all in ($21.50), Button reraises all in ($36.74), UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($9.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($9.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

What is the right way to look at the math here? Should I have wanted UTG + 1 and/or MP1 to call or fold?

vulturesrow · #2 07-30-2005, 02:48 AM

I am too lazy to do the math right now but just my gut feeling is you dont want MP1 along, although that .50 bet into a raised pot doesnt seem like the work of a good player. CO's allin smells like a premium pair trying to protect his hand against the flush. So I think you put yourself in a good situation.

As to your QJs question, this is a pretty good place to play it. The only negative I see is that the PFR doensnt have a real deep stack. Still, he is representing a big pair and your hand has good potential for outflopping him.

#3 07-30-2005, 03:06 AM

I'm going to start referring to "above average for party" players as above average fish or something. People keep thinking I'm saying they are good players. This guy is above average for Party $5o, which is to say not as good as me, and I basically suck, I think.

vulturesrow · #4 07-30-2005, 04:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to start referring to "above average for party" players as above average fish or something. People keep thinking I'm saying they are good players. This guy is above average for Party $5o, which is to say not as good as me, and I basically suck, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know what you meant. I didnt mean to imply you thought the guy was good. Poor choice of words. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

gulebjorn · #5 07-30-2005, 05:11 AM

I don't cold call raises with QJs too often. Of course, you have position here, but you better have a solid plan for a Q or J high flop. This hand could get you in trouble, for obvious domination reasons.

Because of this, you cannot play this hand for top pair value against a raiser. You're looking for a flush draw or straight draw. But the straight draws won't always be OESD, and the flush draw won't be the nut flush draw all that often.

That being said, this is one of the best flops you can hope for. I would probably just call the all-in bet, in case someone wants to come along for the ride. If they have a flush draw, they're getting 2:1 on their call. Considering that you are pushing the turn no matter what, this isn't even close to the odds they need to make their call correct.

In small stakes NL, you want to give your opponents chances to make mistakes. Taking a 2:1 call on a flush draw with very limited implied odds is a bad mistake. So you want them to make it.

Of course, they do not have to have the flush draw. If AQ, KT, AJ or something wants to call this, you should be more than happy to let them in.

JMO. Comments are welcome.

vulturesrow · #6 07-30-2005, 05:29 AM

Only thing I dont agree with is the call recommendation. He needs to go all in here or else when he puts the rest in on the turn, he is giving the remaining villain very good calling odds.

#7 07-30-2005, 05:41 AM

PF, I don't mind limping with Q-Js from CO or Button, but I would never call a raise with it. And it sure looks like you were dominated by villain. His play looks like kings, aces, or A-Q to me. I hope kings for your sake.

After the flop, you're ahead of all three of these hands. And with a flush draw and straight draw up there and the pot already big, I'm all in for isolation purposes. Get it heads up and play for a big pot against someone whom you're pretty sure you have beat.

gulebjorn · #8 07-30-2005, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Only thing I dont agree with is the call recommendation. He needs to go all in here or else when he puts the rest in on the turn, he is giving the remaining villain very good calling odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think?

Villain would be calling $36.74 for a 8.75 + 21.35 + 36.74 = $66.84 pot, so thats 1.8:1 if my math isn't failing me.

I'm looking at this flop to river now. I don't think that's good enough to call this, let alone very good calling odds.

You disagree?

#9 07-30-2005, 05:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only thing I dont agree with is the call recommendation. He needs to go all in here or else when he puts the rest in on the turn, he is giving the remaining villain very good calling odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think?

Villain would be calling $36.74 for a 8.75 + 21.35 + 36.74 = $66.84 pot, so thats 1.8:1 if my math isn't failing me.

I'm looking at this flop to river now. I don't think that's good enough to call this, let alone very good calling odds.

You disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I just say that you two are giving these donks too much credit. Do you honestly think THEY are considering the odds? All the guy is probably thinking is, "I've got two callers, so now I have to call on my draw." And that may be giving him too much credit. There's a big difference psychologically for most of these donks between calling a raise and a call and calling a raise all in and another raise all in. I know it doesn't change the math but for them...

Like I said in my previous post, this is already big and there are too many cards on the turn and river you don't want to hit. I'm all in on the flop for isolation against a player whom I'm pretty sure I have beat.

gulebjorn · #10 07-30-2005, 06:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can I just say that you two are giving these donks too much credit. Do you honestly think THEY are considering the odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why you need to think about the things we have been discussing. They don't have a clue, so you can offer them incorrect odds, and they will still call. This is very good for you. I hope you understand this concept, or else you urgently need to study up.

You should always be thinking about pot odds and implied odds, especially when your opponents are not, because they will allow you to lay them horrible odds and they will take them. This is the way you make money in NL.