A7o Hand Nfinity and I Disagreed On

[numeri]

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so because we raise preflop with a hand, we have to bet and raise postflop? wtf? we got 3-bet (even assuming an unknown), so we can't exactly win many bets with our shitty ace. however, raising preflop is good because we can win the pot often without a showdown. someone 3-bet us and spoiled that - now we're in a new situation, and this situation does not call for aggressive play.

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This was a hard point for me to learn. (And still is, since I haven't quite gotten it.) Preflop aggression is not a requirement for postflop aggression.

Good post, Miles.

[car ramrod]

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3. I reiterate. If you intend to play Ax passively post flop then don't open-raise with Ax MP


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so because we raise preflop with a hand, we have to bet and raise postflop? wtf? we got 3-bet (even assuming an unknown), so we can't exactly win many bets with our shitty ace. however, raising preflop is good because we can win the pot often without a showdown. someone 3-bet us and spoiled that - now we're in a new situation, and this situation does not call for aggressive play.


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I'm going to have to go with Miles on this one.

[Shillx]

Well he is betting anything on 4th street that beats you and there is some chance that he might check a worse hand behind again so I like betting the turn. I would obviously bet the river the way the hand was played.

These types of people are the easiest to exploit (assuming they raise the turn with a big hand) since you can just fold if they man up and pop the turn. If they just call you know that they have kings or something and you can value bet them to death. I don't really mind checking behind on the flop with A-big (though not so much on this board since you will have a pair or gutter very often here) but the play is to just call the turn and then raise the river. This way you get the most out of something that is a 30:1 underdog while that hand would just fold if you bet the flop (or fold if you raise the turn). And you still get maximum value if they have a worse ace since you also have to be capable of making this play with nothing as well.

Brad

[kapw7]

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stats over 30 hands is more than nothing.

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More than nothing in stats means NOTHING. Consider carefully what you say. You contradict the majority of established posters in HUSH etc. I have seen 30-hands 35/5/1 players to turn to 20/18/2 or 60/20/2 or whatever

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2. I criticised the post-flop play and not only flop play. Checking this turn is more -EV than playing 72o UTG.

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lolol incredible claim when you say we can't put the guy on a [censored] hand. how would you get EV numbers without a hand range?

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I didn't quite understood what you are trying to say but yes checking the turn (not intending to raise) means you give up nearly 1 BB. Playing 72o UTG means you give up less than 1 SB.

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3. I reiterate. If you intend to play Ax passively post flop then don't open-raise with Ax MP

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so because we raise preflop with a hand, we have to bet and raise postflop? wtf? we got 3-bet (even assuming an unknown), so we can't exactly win many bets with our shitty ace.

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The opponent told you on the flop that he has no Ace. And you check on the turn? If you don't intend to check-raise then don't check. You lose money. Bet. Similar (but I accept - not quite the same) with river

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however, raising preflop is good because we can win the pot often without a showdown. someone 3-bet us and spoiled that - now we're in a new situation, and this situation does not call for aggressive play.

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Then fold your hand preflop after the 3-bet if you are not going to make any money post-flop.

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FWIW I think Wook fell a victim of thinking too much on putting his opponent on a hand.

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classic.

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You are correct on this one. Thanks

[kapw7]

Betting top-top pair is too agressive for you? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Anyway my main criticism is for the turn (and less for the river) check. This is where you lose money.

[BluEsiNsOuL]

If I had AA/QQ and somehow I checked through the flop, I would just call your turn bet. I don't think we can pay less in this hand. That 7 on the river was a diaster.

[kapw7]

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That 7 on the river was a diaster.

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[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[MrWookie47]

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stats over 30 hands is more than nothing.

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More than nothing in stats means NOTHING. Consider carefully what you say. You contradict the majority of established posters in HUSH etc. I have seen 30-hands 35/5/1 players to turn to 20/18/2 or 60/20/2 or whatever

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Dude, 30 hands of stats are not nothing, no matter how you slice it. Thirty hands of stats are just that - thirty hands of stats. Sure, some players get variable runs of cards that can skew those stats from their true stats, but our current measurement of his VPIP is an unbiased estimator of his true VPIP. We don't think his VPIP is exactly 35 and his PFR is exactly 5, but based on our current information, it's much more likely that he's actually 35/5 than it is for him to be 20/10 or 30/20 or 98/1 or 66/60. As per the cliche, poker is a game of incomplete information. I gave you some information that wasn't complete. Weigh it. Use it. Completely disregarding it is -EV.

Also, checking this turn is nowhere near a 1 BB mistake. It's a 1 BB mistake if my equity in this pot is exactly 100% meaning I always have the best hand now, and villain is drawing dead. That is clearly not the case. There are a lot of hands I could be behind, and if I'm ahead, villain has some small number of outs. The reason why your statement is ridiculous is because it's impossible to estimate my equity (and thus, the size of my mistake, if it even is a mistake) without putting villain on a range of hands. It sounded like you didn't want to put villain on a range because his stats were so meaningless. Care to chime in with what your range of hands is such that checking this turn is such a gigantic mistake?

[numeri]

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Betting top-top pair is too agressive for you? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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No, I just meant in general. (Hence my comment about learning this concept.) I think many players feel obliged to continue their aggression postflop after raising preflop. We don't need to feel bad about passive lines. (Not that this hand should be played passively - just a general comment again.)

[MrWookie47]

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Betting top-top pair is too agressive for you? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Yes, it is too aggressive in this situation. When I saw the flop, my plan was to c/c, c/c, bet the river, and play poker if raised. Betting this flop is pretty poor.