From the pages of HPFAP

[Bob T.]

Yeah, most party 2-4 players with top pair, aren't going to laydown on the river. If you are up against two of those, and one straight draw, you will likely win two bets here.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Bob T.]

Darn, you have a different edition than I do. Anyway, you have to remember that HPFAP was written for a midlimit game, and you are talking about party 2/4 here. I think that it might be possible that the play might be different at 40-80, than it would at 2-4.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Dynasty]

The main purpose of the play is to get opponents to fold middle pair and bottom pair on the flop rather than draw to their 5-outers. It also puts pressure on opponents to fold 4-out straight draws.

But, look at the pot odds your opponents are getting on the flop. With six opponents seeing the flop for two small bets, there are 12 small bets in the pot (we'll count the small blind as the rake). You bet the flop and UTG raises. That puts 15 small bets in the pot and give anybody who is going to call two bets cold, 7.5:1 pot odds.

If an opponent is drawing to a 5-outer, they need 8.4:1 pot odds. They're getting 7.5:1. So, at the cost of all that pre-flop equity you're giving up by not 3-betting with QQ, you are making an opponent make only a small mistake on the flop.

Let's say MP2 cold-calls on the flop. Then, any player behind him is getting 8.5:1 pot odds to call drawing to a 5-outer. Now, he's not making a mistake to call.

So, what was the purpose of this play again?

[bigsooner]

the book is written for mid-limits there is a section in the back of the 21st cenury edition aimed at low limit loose games here is the quote" suppose you have two kings or two queens in the big blind. THe player UTG raises and six people call, our prefered way to play this hand is not to raise and then when the flop comes to come out betting unless it includes an ace, you should come out betting to enlist the preflop raiser to be your unwitting partner to knock people out"

[afs]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river.

You have the potential to win multiple bets here, so you don't need to have a 50% chance of winning for the river bet to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you gotta take into account the possibility that you'll be raised, unless you're about to lay down for one more bet. I don't know what the number would be, but I'm betting you probably do need to win around fifty percent. Dunno.

I still like a river bet though.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

[ QUOTE ]
you are exactly right they dont understand these are the opp. you want to keep the pot small with that way when they chase it is a mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning is mistaken here. If you are so interested in these bad players making mistakes, why not have them make a mistake in calling a three-bet preflop maybe a cap. That's really a mistake. And if you are so sure that they will chase, you might as well get your money in while you problably have the best hand. Then let them correctly pay to catch up.

QQ will not win too many pots unimpproved against 5 players who will chase irregardless of odds. Why not make these type of players pay dearly when you spike your set.

I think that most players (I don't play online so I don't know these players) do respond to size of pots and you may have reason to keep pot relatively small pf in hopes of manipulating field later. But this depends on their having some sense, if they have none, you must get your money in preflop.

PT

Only in heads up situation can ftop be strictly assumed to be true. All mistakes by opponents do not put money in your pocket in long run, just most of them.

[AviD]

What edition of HPFAP do you have?
And what section is this under?

I put the book down for awhile and just picked it back up early this week, I may have missed the part you are talking about or just havent gotten to it yet.

[bigsooner]

p 167 21st cent. edd. i postedthe quote in another post in this thread

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
the book is written for mid-limits there is a section in the back of the 21st cenury edition aimed at low limit loose games

[/ QUOTE ]


where do they ever use the term "low limit" in that book?

Answer in white:
<font color="white"> nowhere, "loose games" refers to loose mid-limit games </font>


raising QQ here is one of the easiest things ever

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

If you are so interested in these bad players making mistakes, why not have them make a mistake in calling a three-bet preflop maybe a cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated. When the pot is large, they are correct to chase, but you are correct to bet the best hand. Make them PAY. Raise pre-flop.