Misplayed, but where?

Macedon · #1 10-18-2005, 12:09 AM

I know I misplayed this hand. I have trouble releasing big pairs, and I feel like since I was playing so tight, I gave away my hand with a big raise UTG. But you tell me, where is my biggest error....going all-in when a flush threatened?

The villian in question was a maniac. He was in 50% of the pots and was very aggressive. In short, I didn't think he had the flush but the possibility existed that he was on a draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

MP3 ($82.85)
CO ($51.25)
Button ($107.15)
SB ($29.65)
BB ($54.80)
Hero ($48.25)
UTG+1 ($59.35)
MP1 ($35.30)
MP2 ($35.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $3, UTG+1 calls $3, 5 folds, SB (poster) calls $2.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $9, UTG+1 calls $9, SB folds.

Turn: ($27.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $36.25 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $36.25.

River: ($100) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $100

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
UTG+1 has 8h 9h (straight, jack high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $100.

element00 · #2 10-18-2005, 12:40 AM

Er, I don't think so?

#3 10-18-2005, 12:43 AM

I think against a maniac, you played okay. I don't know if I'd push the turn, but I see why you did. Normally I would've doubled my flop bet to $18. If he pushes your last $18 you have a tough, but probably correct fold. Against a maniac I couldn't say folding is correct here.

#4 10-18-2005, 12:49 AM

I don't see a reason to only pot the flop and overbet turn, if you want to dedicate yourself to this pot against the maniac( which you should have considering his play) an overbet on flop to like machinehead stated would be better than your line. that way all in on turn is better and his odds on flop are worse. (Even hought they were already pretty horrible as you could have easily had a club)

Macedon · #5 10-18-2005, 07:34 AM

But here's the thing, against a maniac, aren't you giving too much away by playing tight, ABC poker. If he puts me on a range of big hands (QQ, KK, or AA), it is unlikely that he will play his hand incorrectly. He can either call a big raise with low pocket pairs hoping to farm out a set OR call with suited connectors and hope to land a draw (which he will chase), because he knows that the implied odds against an tight poker player will be enormous.

That's the beauty of being a maniac, you always get someone (usually a tight player like myself) to call you down when you land your ridiculous, unseen (unimaginable) hand.
[Haven't we all seen this?]

So how do you combat that?

You can double the pot as was suggested, but against an aggressive big-stacked maniac there is no gaurantee this will solve anything. He clearly has no fear about chasing bad pot odds and he knows that he has the psychological advantage even if you do fight back with aggression.

Macedon · #6 10-18-2005, 08:02 AM

Case in point, and I wasn't even in this hand...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($92.07)
UTG+1 ($162.81)
UTG+2 ($451.10)
MP1 ($19)
MP2 ($157.10)
MP3 ($86.15)
CO ($112.18)
Hero ($98.85)
SB ($85.80)
BB ($130.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, UTG+2 raises to $2, MP1 raises to $4, 5 folds, BB calls $3, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls $2.

Flop: ($13.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets $4, BB calls $4, UTG+2 raises to $25, BB calls $21.

Turn: ($67.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets $20, BB calls $20.

River: ($107.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $5, UTG+2 raises to $30, BB calls $25.

Final Pot: $167.50

Results in white below: 
BB has Ad Ac (one pair, aces).
UTG+2 has 4s 5s (flush, king high).
MP1 has Ah As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins $167.50.

JustToast · #7 10-18-2005, 08:20 AM

Let me get this straight.

Against a maniac, the posts so far indicate you should far-overbet pot on the flop to induce a "mistake" in him calling with his draw. If he flopped the flush, would it not be our "mistake" to bet 2x-3x pot?

Macedon · #8 10-18-2005, 09:52 AM

Just Toast,

I agree with you. The advice to overbet the pot against a maniac when a flush is threatening seems lame.

Look what happened in the second hand I posted where the UTG+2 raised to $25 with a flush draw. That is what maniacs do. They chase draws and they fire away with chips. How do you respond to that when you have KINGS or ACES (like these two guys were holding)?

Jocke_F · #9 10-18-2005, 10:21 AM

if the guy is the kind of player that always bet when checked to, I suggest check-raising pot size, and get the small amount you have left in on any turn. With your flop line I would bet a bit smaller on turn but still enough that he makes a mistake if he calls on a flush draw, if he pushes I call and type nh when he has something like a straight.

Macedon · #10 10-18-2005, 10:50 AM

This has to be the single biggest way people lose money on the $50 and $100 tables* and the best advice appears to be bet more on the flop or turn. That just doesn't seem good enough.

*I'm sure we have all seen maniacs take down $300+ pots playing cards like 45s, 89s, against big pocket pairs. These players swoop down into a game, play all crazy, build up their maniac reputation and then absolutely crush the competition with hands that leave you baffled. Other than not getting involved in a pot with players like this (unless you have the nuts), there has got to be a better way of handling a maniac (in these circumstances) than what has been suggested.