Value bet river versus loudmouth (2-5 B&M)?

VarlosZ · #1 08-26-2005, 01:28 PM

$2-$5 NL at the Tropicana in AC. The table has been playing very loose. The villain is a very LAG college kid who's been drinking and constantly chattering. During an earlier hand, he took the lead with a large all-in overbet when the turn put a third club on the board, then (rudely) berrated his opponent non-stop as he tried to make a decision. After his opponent folded, the kid showed the nut-flush.

I'm in the CO w/ K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Four limpers to me, I call, button calls, SB (villain) raises to $15. This could mean anything, but is most likely two high cards given his play to this point. Four players call the $15, I call, button folds. Six players to the flop.

Flop (pot=$90): T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

It's checked around to me, I bet $50. SB calls, everyone else folds.

Turn (pot=$190): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB opens for $20. I raise to $120, SB thinks for about 30 seconds and calls (seems genuinely reluctant to me).

River (pot=$430): 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB thinks for about 10 seconds and checks. He hasn't said a word since the flop. He has about $250 left, I have him covered. Against most opponents I'd check behind without a second thought, but I felt that I had a good (not great) read on him, and that he had a weaker Ten. Should I bet this river (and if so, how much)? In other words, is a good read sufficient, or do I need a super-terrific read to make what would normally be a bad bet?

ryanghall · #2 08-26-2005, 01:34 PM

I think you'd need a REAL good read to bet this river. I'd also fold preflop.

Ryan

VarlosZ · #3 08-26-2005, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
In most games so would I, but the dynamic at this table was such that catching one pair w/ KTo in a raised pot could be profitable, and catching two pair or better meant huge implied odds.

JackOfSpeed · #4 08-26-2005, 02:11 PM

You're calling for the implied odds of flopping two pair (roughly one in 48, I think)? Wow.

VarlosZ · #5 08-26-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're calling for the implied odds of flopping two pair (roughly one in 48, I think)? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, that's not what I said.

It was an unusual table and you weren't there, so I'm just going to have to ask you to take it on faith that, between legitimate showdown value and bluffing equity in position, I'd be able to play KTo profitably in that spot.

JackOfSpeed · #6 08-27-2005, 11:09 AM

misread the post - my bad. also, i don't think it's a more than a marginally incorrect preflop call, which may have been right under the circumstances you mentioned.

flawless_victory · #7 08-27-2005, 11:21 AM

ive played in many poker games... i have played the trop 2/5, but im sure its a donkfestx10, fold preflop. KTo just sucks. bad.
in this hand, id put the guy on 99/88 and move in on the river. if he had an overpair or T, hed just bet the flop i think. his pathetic turn play looks like a small pair or a set. i cant imagine him checking TT to you on the end, so move in and hope he calls... then make fun of him.

VarlosZ · #8 08-27-2005, 03:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
misread the post - my bad. also, i don't think it's a more than a marginally incorrect preflop call, which may have been right under the circumstances you mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]
No prob -- if the call was correct, it was by a very small margin, certainly. Boredom might also have played too large a role in the call.

flawless:
That makes some sense, though I was definitely afraid of betting into his flush, AT, whatever and having everyone else laugh at me.

I wound up checking behind, and he mucked face down after I showed my hand.

creedofhubris · #9 08-27-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
$2-$5 NL at the Tropicana in AC. The table has been playing very loose. The villain is a very LAG college kid who's been drinking and constantly chattering. During an earlier hand, he took the lead with a large all-in overbet when the turn put a third club on the board, then (rudely) berrated his opponent non-stop as he tried to make a decision. After his opponent folded, the kid showed the nut-flush.

I'm in the CO w/ K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Four limpers to me, I call, button calls, SB (villain) raises to $15. This could mean anything, but is most likely two high cards given his play to this point. Four players call the $15, I call, button folds. Six players to the flop.

Flop (pot=$90): T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

It's checked around to me, I bet $50. SB calls, everyone else folds.

Turn (pot=$190): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

SB opens for $20. I raise to $120, SB thinks for about 30 seconds and calls (seems genuinely reluctant to me).

River (pot=$430): 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB thinks for about 10 seconds and checks. He hasn't said a word since the flop. He has about $250 left, I have him covered. Against most opponents I'd check behind without a second thought, but I felt that I had a good (not great) read on him, and that he had a weaker Ten. Should I bet this river (and if so, how much)? In other words, is a good read sufficient, or do I need a super-terrific read to make what would normally be a bad bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played this hand fine, and the check behind on the river is standard. He's unlikely to just call a river bet, and you don't want to have to make a decision against a check/raise.

Preflop, limping KTo in the CO after 4 callers is standard. After SB's "raise" gets called in 4 spots, I would find it hard to fold: you have position, are getting 8:1, and essentially closing the action. A fold isn't terrible, and is ordinarily the proper play with KTo facing a raise, but the circumstances here dictate a call.