Your turn play, sirs?

brettbrettr · #1 05-24-2005, 08:00 PM

Button in this hand is a maniac; been here 30 hands or so, playing 50/18/2.5. Hasn't shown down many at this point so I'm not sure if he's a total donk or he at least has some sense of anything, anything at all. He's def not weak and there are no free cards if he has any piece.

SB seems reasonable, but really, I only have 20 hands on him, so best to consider him an unknown.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB raises,

SB's calling 2 cold on the flop and then raising the turn said "9" to me. Fine. Thing is, there's a very real real chance that button is popping this again. Then again, this is a biggish pot. Then again I could be drawing dead. Then again I could be a donk myself. Then again, your turn play in this spot, sirs?

Is the pre-flop 3 bet dumb considering the SB called?

jackdaniels · #2 05-24-2005, 08:14 PM

I would not 3 bet pre flop with that hand once SB calls.

Once you reached the turn however, I think you are up against an overpair (possibly Aces with A of Hearts) for button and a 9 for SB. As such, I think you are drawing live. The only hands you fear right now are 66 and 77. Getting 5 to 1 now if button doesn't re-raise, you are getting the right price to call. The pot is big enough that they will pay off 1 bet each on the river.

I vote call.

festis_jr · #3 05-24-2005, 08:18 PM

I think it doesnt matter. EV -+0

Nick C · #4 05-24-2005, 08:20 PM

I'm cold-calling the turn. If it comes back two more to me and I end up having to pay 4 BBs to see the river, then I'm not happy, but that's how it goes.

I think the preflop 3-bet is fine. It's quite possible that you have the best hand.

jackdaniels · #5 05-24-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the preflop 3-bet is fine. It's quite possible that you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you want to maintain some form of ambiguity about your hand that a 3 bet pre-flop discloses? If the board comes all junk, I usually have an easier time picking it up against a pre-flop raiser in steal position beacause he doesn't have much and there isn't a lot of money in the pot. I think the right play here would have been call the raise pre-flop, bet out flop and expect buttun to raise (shut out SB). 3 bet and lead turn.

If SB calls 2 cold (as he did) you play it slow (no 3 bet/no turn lead - fold UI to aggression). If the SB folds and the button caps - you know you need to catch up, check/fold any UI turn card.

Is there more value from adding money to the pot with "possibly" the best hand vs. keeping the pot small/re-stealing it with your "undisclosed" holdings?

brettbrettr · #6 05-24-2005, 09:00 PM

I don't know about the 3 bet but this:

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you want to maintain some form of ambiguity about your hand that a 3 bet pre-flop discloses?

[/ QUOTE ]

is the second time today you've advoacated a tricky move. Straightforward poker wins the money at these limits. If you're doing all this crap you suggest, stop, and watch your results improve.

jackdaniels · #7 05-24-2005, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is the second time today you've advoacated a tricky move. Straightforward poker wins the money at these limits. If you're doing all this crap you suggest, stop, and watch your results improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I advocating too much "tricky-ness" for 3-6? Maybe. Now that you have mentioned it, I'll try to keep track of when I do it and re-assess what it brings to my game.

I really find that at 3-6 you get some decent players, am I the only facing tough competition? Are you guys all playing against fish and each other at these levels? Maybe I should move to Party...

peterchi · #8 05-24-2005, 09:23 PM

Not sure on my logic, and I believe an argument can be made either way about 3-betting pre-flop, but here's what I'm thinking:

I don't do it here because KQs doesn't have much showdown value if you miss, and 3-betting inherently ties you to this hand more. i.e. in this case, now you have odds to call 2 bets on the turn. If you didn't 3-bet pre-flop, then you would fold on the turn due to the smaller pot, thus not having to commit more chips with this hand... but also not having the chance to win the pot (which would've been bigger if you 3-bet pre-flop).

So I guess the answer would be, which path do you find more fun? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Nutz&Boltz · #9 05-24-2005, 09:28 PM

Straight forward play will win here most of the time. If you are aggressive and semibluff you will have plenty of deception in your game.

DemonDeac · #10 05-24-2005, 09:33 PM

im fine with the 3-bet cuz button is maniac

now for the main point of ur post, the turn play....
when it comes to you, the pot is 11BB and you have to call 2, so you're being offered 11:2, or 5.5:1, expressed odds. You also have big implied odds if you hit, seeing how the hand has been played out.

as to being concerned about the button, its possible that another raise may come and then a cap, i still think the pot is/will be offering you good odds to have a go at it

the only thing i would worry about is the SB(who clearly has a 9 IMO) and whether he wouuld call a preflop raise with 69 or 79, but he seems reasonable to you, so im not too worried about it.

calling seems fine on the turn