JJ in pressure, 200NL

ludo72 · #1 12-05-2005, 05:03 AM

MP is 60/24 after 35 hands and definately on the LAGgy side. CO is 24/8 and hasn't done anything worth mentioning this far. Blinds are both very loose calling stations who chase any draw. What's my line here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($84.95)
MP ($355.82)
CO ($247.47)
Hero ($306.65)
SB ($36.80)
BB ($288.58)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP raises to $8, CO calls $8, Hero calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($41) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets $8, CO raises to $25, Hero ?

Final Pot:

UOPokerPlayer · #2 12-05-2005, 06:51 AM

I sometimes will reraise this pf, since I've seen a lot of weakness and opponents. I think JJ may be too far in the middle of hands that can't call a reraise and have value to be made. More likely to make the reraise with garbage or something more deceptive.

Rough flop, the cold-calls a lot of the time mean set. I'm not sure if I fold to the bet since it's so small. I sometimes like to re-bump to something small like 50 or 60. This makes it an easy decision if someone comes over the top and will probably slow down the hand. Calling really sucks imo. If you think CO is a nut peddler you can fold this, otherwise make a small raise.

mythrilfox · #3 12-05-2005, 07:31 AM

Against the player you described, I re-raise this nearly everytime preflop...

On the flop...

1. If you raise you usually only get played with by better hands and you are really hard-pressed to get any true value out of your hand. In addition, any raise that doesn't commit you gives CO proper odds to draw with a hand like AdQd, and also opens yourself up to a push from a similar hand like that from the blinds or from MP or even CO. But a 3-bet here shows enough strength to where I don't think you have to worry very much about being pushed off by a worse hand.
2. If you call a couple of ugly things may happen, including: a) the blinds tag along for an extremely cheap price in an ever-swelling pot, b) CO puts everyone on draws and has a hand like 88 that he starts betting hard since everyone is calling. now you really don't know where you are
3. If you fold, well... you lose.

I'm not really worried about MP here or the blinds, we're going to know really soon if they have anything, and most of the time they don't... Now we know raising doesn't get much intrinsic value out of the hand, so it might seem like a case can be made for calling, but the problem with that is since the blinds are so likely to tag along the pot gets way out of control very quickly. Like if you call and one of the blinds calls (or SB goes allin), MP is almost always going to call closing the action. That puts the pot at $141 on the turn... if it's checked to you, you could now bet $85 or something and fold to any further action, but we're in the same boat as we were on the flop: you aren't going to be able to take advantage of the actual value of your hand, since no better hand folds and no worse hand calls. The advantage here is that you collect more money if no one has nothing, but bear in mind that extra money you're collecting was put in "correctly" on the flop anyway - with them getting good odds to draw.

Is CO is the kind of player who will fire again with 88-TT on the turn if the above scenario happens? If he is, I think you're better off raising the flop. If he's not, you might just call and brave a turn card. Granted, you hate to see a lot of cards come off, but if the turn is checked to you, you can KNOW your hand is good. I don't like to base my decisions on one potential scenario that will happen later in the hand, either... but if he's the kind of player who will fire 88-TT again, you feel much better about raising him on the flop anyway; and if he's the kind of player who checks those hands there, you should be worried enough on the flop to just call. Plus I think this scenario is pretty likely and pretty ugly, so we'd like to be able to handle it as best as possible.

Also, how do you interpret CO's raise? I can't imagine a really powerful hand raising that little on this flop with so many loose callers in, which is another reason I'd be more inclined to raise the flop... if he is really, REALLY passive you can go ahead and dump it right off, since there are a lot of players who don't really think about hand protection, and only bet/raise relative to the bet they're facing rather than the size of the pot. But it sounds like you don't know him that well, and I would need a really strong read to do that. Usually, though, the kind of player who isn't giving a damn about hand protection is donkish enough to where you can expect to have the best hand here enough to make a raise profitable.

All in all, I like a raise to $65-70 (however little will get the job done), folding to any further action. It's ugly but it looks like the best of the 3 options. Next time re-raise preflop.

ludo72 · #4 12-05-2005, 08:12 AM

Thanks for the long reply, good analysis.

A couple of things about MP and CO. MP's stats are probably a bit skewed because he opened a lot of pots with a half min-raise (2½xBB). This was not the first time he opened for 4xBB but I expected this to be a somewhat better hand than one might conclude from his stats. CO had limped quite a bit but he often folded when facing a late position raise, so I put him on a fairly good hand too. Because of this and the fact that I had only played with them for few orbits and didn't know much about their post-flop tendencies I opted to just call instead of re-raising. If I knew the blinds were going to tag along (which I should have guessed), 3-betting would have been a much better choice ofcourse.

In the hand I called CO's raise and so did both blinds. MP pushed all-in with AdJd which outdrew CO's QQ. Everyone else naturally folded.

pottie · #5 12-05-2005, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Against the player you described, I re-raise this everytime preflop...

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Atropos · #6 12-05-2005, 08:46 AM

IMO if you dont reraise preflop, you are playing your JJ for set value most of the time here. Because you didnt reraise preflop, you now have to fold. There are too many players, BB or UTG could have a set, because it's a draw-heavy board and they might want to check-raise all-in. MP could have better pair, or CO had the same idea as you and wanted to trap with KK or something. Or he has a set...

Thats why I think you cant ever call here. There are too many draw, too many possibilities and the hand becomes crazily difficult to play. A reraise is probably better than a call, because it makes the hand easier to play, if none of the other players is capable of pushing a draw / lower pair than JJ here. However I think you are already beat here too often, thats why a fold is probably not too bad, considering you didnt invest very much in the pot.

jkkkk · #7 12-05-2005, 09:46 AM

I fold the flop.

Hattifnatt · #8 12-05-2005, 09:50 AM

Easy fold on the flop.

rachelwxm · #9 12-05-2005, 05:51 PM

nice post, Post more please. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

emil3000 · #10 12-05-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me too, but I think it's close. I reraise preflop as well.