K9s and KT

closer2313 · #1 07-20-2005, 06:30 PM

It seems lately that I dont know when to call down and when to just fold. It seems that I alot of the time I can just say what the villian has, I call down, and he flips over exactly what I said he had and I lose an additional 2 BB because I couldn't fold. Other times I have a marginal hand and I get raised or checkraised and I give the villian too much credit and fold.

I just dont know when to call down and when to fold when I dont have a good read on the villian. I know if the pot is big or the villian is a maniac I should call down. I know if the pot is small and the villian is a tag I should tend to fold. What else should I be looking for?

Also, what is a good winrate in BB/100 for .25/.50. Over how many hands do I need to get a good determination of my true winrate, 20,000? I got off to a very good start at this level, and it seems over the last 2 weeks I am either barely winning or losing big in every session I play and my confidence in my own abilities is a bit shaken.

Thanks in advance for any comments, suggestions, or advice.
Hand 1

Table was very loose passive. Villian is semiloose aggressive aggressive.

Is this even worth a call down?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises, BB folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Hand 2

Table is loose passive. No read on villian because I have never played with him before. Alot of you are gonna say to raise on the river, if you do, can you tell me what range of hands you are putting the villian on that would make raising the best play?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Aaron W. · #2 07-20-2005, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont know when to call down and when to fold when I dont have a good read on the villian.

...

Hand 1

Table was very loose passive. Villian is semiloose aggressive aggressive.

Is this even worth a call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call him down. He might have chosen to get aggressive because everyone else folded out. He may have a king with a worse kicker.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2

Table is loose passive. No read on villian because I have never played with him before. Alot of you are gonna say to raise on the river, if you do, can you tell me what range of hands you are putting the villian on that would make raising the best play?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

River: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown, I bet-call the river. I would hate to see him check behind with something like 99 who was trying to bully you out of the pot and now thinks it's futile. Also, the king pairing on the board means that it's less likely he has a king and more likely he's got something else (maybe A6 or a medium pair).

nomadtla · #3 07-20-2005, 07:18 PM

*grunch*
Since there's no raise PF on either of these. Does anyone see a 3-bet on both flops?
limp K9s UTG+1? (granted it's in SSH for loose games, but since you profess yourself that your postflop play isn't great I'd say avoid it. I do but I'm tighter then most and I know that my postflop is not great and decisions like these hands are a mess to me so I avoid them.)
The fold on hand 1 seems weak/tight to me. Your kicker's not great but it's not terrible either. Unless the board gets uglier I'd call the turn (it acctually gives you 6 outs to a split with KJ, KT)
Hand 2 was better cause you called down. I don't think he has the flush unless he started with A6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or maybe suited lows that gave him some form of straight draw on that flop. And the second K makes it less likely he has one. If he does there's at least as many that you beat as those that beat you (esspescially since there was no raise PF AK, KQ, and I think even KJ are less likely). I still don't know that I raise this river but I could see an argument for either way.

@bsolute_luck · #4 07-20-2005, 07:35 PM

these are great hands to discuss. i'm glad they were posted.

hand #1: i'm happy calling down this doofus c/r as he could just be getting weird with a couple weak draw combos- Top pair, BDSD or SD with a BDFD- something like that.

hand #2: this is where i get fidgety really. i don't know why i just hate calling this thing down. the UTG in the middle, i really want to make a move somewhere. i figure we got 3 other options besides calling down:

1. 3-bet the flop - definite possibility
2. donkbet the turn- not with an improved flush draw or KJ
3. c/r the turn- same as #2.

the final option is to fold. the reason i consider folding is the pot is smaller, there are no draws, and the reraise is coming from MP- easy range of a limped KQ or KJ, even AK isn't out of the question w/o a read.

99 or any UI middle pair isn't betting this turn IMO.

the river: the only hands that i can see to keep betting are A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] which i can see raising this flop and betting the improved turn, or KA-J.

detruncate · #5 07-20-2005, 07:53 PM

Hand 1: I'm tempted to 3-bet the flop. What does he c/r here with? He could be trying to extract value with a goodun, but a weak made hand seems like a reasonable alternative if he's a thinking player given the way the hand went down. HU I just plan to call down, but with an extra donator in the hand I think we should raise. If I'm misreading and the c/r came from a passive player I just call, and I lean toward a call vs an unknown.

I 3-bet the flop in hand 2. Given your line, I like a bet/call on the river. A c/r would be bad as it opens up a 3-bet that we probably have to call, and that's about the scariest card possible against a flop better so I don't want Villain checking through.

closer2313 · #6 07-20-2005, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
limp K9s UTG+1? (granted it's in SSH for loose games, but since you profess yourself that your postflop play isn't great I'd say avoid it. I do but I'm tighter then most and I know that my postflop is not great and decisions like these hands are a mess to me so I avoid them.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that my postflop play is somewhat weak, but I feel I need to play marginal but profitable hands like this so that I can improve my postflop play. My postflop play is decent with stronger made hands, playing draws, pushing pot equity to gain value, etc, but Its pretty poor when playing more marginal hands where I am wa/wb.

Hand 1

I really really wanted to call down because of my read on my opponent. It was hard difficult for me because of a few things. He check raised when there was no PFR. I felt that this was because he didn't care if he gave a free card because he had a pretty strong hand. I thought he had better than just top pair, 2 pair, maybe a set of 8s or 6s. I didn't have a really good read on him, so I just wanted to call and see if I improved on the turn. I didn't so I dumped my hand. I didn't think about my hidden outs if he had 2 pair, or if he was on a pure bluff. This hand was early at the table, and I would learn that he is a big bluffer and very aggressive. This read lead me to call him down with a worse hand later and he showed an umimproved ace high and I won that pot.

Hand 2

My total lack of a read on the villian made this hand very difficult to play. 3 Betting the flop and leading the turn if he just calls the flop 3 bet is an option. If he caps, should I just call one bet on the flop and dump the turn if I dont improve?

It just feels like, I either have way the best hand or I am totally crushed. This is why I just called down.

nomadtla · #7 07-20-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that my postflop play is somewhat weak, but I feel I need to play marginal but profitable hands like this so that I can improve my postflop play. My postflop play is decent with stronger made hands, playing draws, pushing pot equity to gain value, etc, but Its pretty poor when playing more marginal hands where I am wa/wb.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand, I wasn't attacking just stating something I noticed. I'm as interested in these hands as you cause I probably would have played them about the same so I'm seeing what others say to do cause these lines seem weak/tight to me, but as I said they're probably how I'd play it.

closer2313 · #8 07-20-2005, 08:26 PM

You know what. Let me clarify a little more.

In both hands, I assumed I had the best hand with TPGK. When I was raised, I was now unsure about whether I had the best hand or whether I needed to draw. Obviously It would be best to know if I have to improve to win or whether I have the best hand right now.

How do you know? I know alot of it has to do with reads on your opponents, but absent a read like in hand 2, what is your basic line for a WA/WB situation?

I know you are not suppose to 3 bet to find out where you are, (I've read that post), but if I feel I might have the best hand, should I 3 bet, half for value and half to find out wher e I am?

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

flopwell · #9 07-20-2005, 08:30 PM

Hand 1: I think I 3 bet the flop against this LAG....If he caps and comes out firing on the turn, I would go into call down mode.

Hand 2: I would most definitely 3 bet the flop unless villain was a known TAg. Board is uncoordinated, and you have TPDK-again, if capped, proceed cautiously.

J. Stew · #10 07-20-2005, 08:31 PM

"I got off to a very good start at this level, and it seems over the last 2 weeks I am either barely winning or losing big in every session I play and my confidence in my own abilities is a bit shaken."

I had the same thing happen. I won about $300 playin' .5/1 at party in the first week. Then for the next three weeks I was just breaking even. When I look back at what changed, it was because I got cocky and started playin too many hands. I saw that I was winning pretty easily and that they played [censored] hands so I thought I was good enough to play [censored] hands too and still win. Now I know I'm not good enough to play [censored] hands and I'm playin solid starting hands in the right positions and working on my post flop play/reading players.

It took me playing enough borderline hands like the ones your talkin about to see that they aren't profitable, unless you know how to play them. I thought I could play them but now I know that winning relatively big in the short term doesn't necessarily mean 'good' player.

Good players can play those hands well because they play them in the right positions and have reads on their opponents to know when they can get away with playing the borderlines