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#1
10-04-2005, 12:07 AM
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Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied odd
There are many times in poker wnen you hold a hand that may be very strong at the moment, however IF beaten, have little or none in the way of outs. There are other hands, which have a higher chance of being beat at the moment, but have a much better chance to improve. Knowing how to play both these kinds of hands is important.
example of hands type A) a small flush, a non-nut straight, bottom set, especially on a 3-straight coordinated board, a medium pocket pair with one over card on the flop, top pair top kicker on a three straight board examples of type B) are top pair and suited A kicker on three suited flop, top set on a three straight flop, middle pair with an overcard kicker and a 3 or 4 flush, top pair and open-ended straight, top pair and four to the nut flush In a multiway pot, you would almost always prefer the type of hand that can improve, especially to a nut hand. In a non-multiway pot the made hands become more powerful, and you normally shouldnt discard your hand unless there exists strong evidence you are beat. However, in multiway pots, you may want to get away from your made hand, not only because it may be beat at the time, but because you can easily be outdrawn against many opponents. An extreme example would be to throw away AT on a flop of 10s 8d 7d against many opponents, unless you are also suited in diamonds. One of the biggest mistakes beginners make is over/under valueing their hands in multiway vs non multiway pot. For example, against one or two opponents, the AT now becomes a clear raising hand, and you should not necessarily throw your hand away even if another diamond falls, or if another straight card falls. However, against many opponents, you should probably protect yourself from those painful turn and river situations by not even calling a bet on the flop. Perhaps you can just call, but by playing the hand you open yourself to get "sucked in". You are basically looking to catch two perfect cards and hopefully boat up. This will not happen often enough to make it correct strategy to stay with this hand. When you do, you will often have the board locked and will not much action either. This relates to the concept of implied odds vs reverse implied odds. Hands that a decent enough chance to improve to the nut hand relative to the number of bets going into the pot give a player the best of it, whereas a made hand with no chance of improvement sometimes becomes costly when outdrawn, players often exclaiming at the river as he tosses in two or three big bets "Let me see your .....". Made hands are stronger in non multiway pots where, if you do have the best hand, there is a decent chance your opponents are drawing dead. However, if someone else has the pure nuts, then it is YOU who is drawing dead. For example, if you flop a small flush against two opponents. Sometimes you will have them drawing dead, sometimes they will out draw you with a bigger flush, and other times they will have flopped a bigger flush. The thing you want to avoid giving away alot of bets in these smaller pots when you are beat and you want to avoid chasing away a potential fish who thinks his one pair type hand is the best. In general you want to play these hands more passively until you see how things on the turn and river develope and how your opponent responds to you checking and calling. You might want to even check behind him on the turn if he checks, although probably you should bet but usually not raise, because a raise will gain only gain a reraise from someone holding a better hand and a fold from someone you want to be in there. Your raise, for example, may drive out the one pair type hand, and gain a reraise from the other guy who is slow playing a bigger flush, now angry you have chased away his fish. Also, dont necessarily throw your flush away if 4 flush fall in non-multiway pots. Although your opponent may be betting for value, he may be betting out of desperation, knowing that with no flush card in his hand he can only win if you fold. What I wanted to stress is that the rules about what types of hands you should play vs many opponents vs the types of hands you would prefer against many opponents and also HOW you play them is important. Getting away from a hand early even if it figures to be the best hand is important in multiway pots is as important as making a flat call down on what looks to be an outdrawn hand in a non multiway pot. Playing made hands in such a way that gains more bets when you have the best hand and dont lose more bets when you dont is important. For example, I would hate holding a pair of pocket JJs against many opponents on a flop of 678. Even if no one has flopped a straight, what cards can you hope for? Only the two case jacks will help you. a 4,5,6,7,8,9,T,Q,K,and Ace will all hurt your hand. I would actually check and fold the jacks, or maybe just look at the turn. But here is another situation: you hold pocket KK against wo or three opponents and the flop is 678 and the turn comes 4 and someone bets into on fourth street. Dont throw those kings away! Although he could have two pair or straight, wouldnt he more likely check and raise you with that straight? This is where a lot of players get confused, two situations require opposite actions, and look exactly the same. The difference is that one is multiway and the other isnt. Another example is when you raise with QQ, get called by two players, the flop comes K76 and the first player bets into you. You usually should check and call. You lose less when your opponent holds a K and win more when he is bluffing or semi-bluffing. In general, you only gain from opponents who hold worse hands and are drawing against you when playing smaller pots and hold the best hand before the flop or on the flop. Sometimes, in multiway pots, the plethera of possible draws make their worse, although strong draw potential hand preferable to your made, very susceptable hand with little chance for improvement. When you play multiway pots, make sure you play hands that play well in multiway pots and make sure you get flops that help your hand, not just flops that have seemingly "missed" other hands. When you play non-multiway pots, be careful about laying down made hands even if they seem hopeless, and dont get too aggressive if your hand has little chance for improvement and may be badly beaten already. These topics relate to implied odds and reverse implied odds. For the longest time I clearly understood implied odds but for some reason never clearly understood reverse implied odds. When I started playing no-limit, I realized how important these concepts are. They are very important in limit poker, and in no limit poker, they become magnified quite a bit. Implied odds relate to having a weak holding or a holding that may be beat at the time, but its potential to improve and collect a lot of bets later make it playable; reverse implied odds relate to having a strong holding at the time that can easily lose or make second best hand and become costly on later on in the hand if a player gets lucky and outdraws it. In no-limit hold'em, these guidelines become intensely magnified for every given round. The implied odds of hands go way up, because if you catch and get lucky, you may potentially win a player's whole stack, or potentially two player's whole stack. The reverse implied odds also go way up, because you make a hand you can not get away from and lose your entire stack, not just a few bets later on. Not fully appreciating how these concepts relate to how you should play your hand is one of the key differences between good and bad limit and especially no-limit players. 
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#2
10-04-2005, 12:31 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
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#3
10-04-2005, 12:40 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
if I take the meaning of your response is to joke at possible "narcissism" you fond in my original post, than I believe you missed everything important in my post and responded to what was entirely unimportant.
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#4
10-04-2005, 02:05 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
[ QUOTE ]
if I take the meaning of your response is to joke at possible "narcissism" you fond in my original post, than I believe you missed everything important in my post and responded to what was entirely unimportant. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, I'm just wondering if you could offer a one sentence thesis statement of the first post. I tried to read it, but after the first sentence found myself staring at my thumb. which is cool.
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#6
10-04-2005, 02:22 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
Does your response indicate that you can't find a one sentence summary? I've learned a lot from people with much less training than I have, but they all managed to grab my attention in a line or two. If you have something interesting to say, you might look for an interesting way to say it. In the meantime, I'll never know...
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#7
10-04-2005, 02:28 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
[ QUOTE ]
Does your response indicate that you can't find a one sentence summary? I've learned a lot from people with much less training than I have, but they all managed to grab my attention in a line or two. If you have something interesting to say, you might look for an interesting way to say it. In the meantime, I'll never know... [/ QUOTE ] In case you don't know JJNJustin is a legend in the SS forum Playing Big Pairs JTs
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#8
10-04-2005, 02:35 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
You know, funny thing. I clicked both of the links you offeredd. They both had a compelling thesis identified in one sentence at the top.
Yes, I confess, that I didn't finish either as they bored me soon thereafter. But here's to the writing that built the legend...
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#9
10-04-2005, 02:41 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied
I would prefer those who have something meaningful to add respond to my posts, rather than those who are made to feel so inadequate that they must use sarcasm and malevolence as a substitute for intellect and/or understanding.
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#10
10-04-2005, 02:53 AM
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Re: Hands that can improve vs dead hands/ implied odds vs. rev implied odd
a) as to the last thought in your post separating bad from good players: we dont seek to do that. basic poker skills do that. we seek to advance well beyond "good."
b) folding JJ on 678 board on the flop when people are betting and raising is weak. c) overstating implied odds and reverse implied odds in limit can be costly, as you have just demonstrated. Barron
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