check/call check/call check/raise the river

[cardcounter0]

You know the scenario. You flop TPTK.
Table full of fish check around, you bet, they call.
Nothing on the turn.
Table full of fish check around, you bet, they call.
Nothing on the river.
Table full of fish check around, you bet ---
Fish all fold, except one of the check/call fish RAISES.

Do you make the crying call? How often do you give the fish an extra bet?

I have found more often than not, that river check raise means:
His stupid little pocket pair became trips on the river.
That river card gave him two pair of whatever random crap he is playing.
The gut shot straight just hit.
Runner-Runner flush just occured.

It almost never means:
Maybe his bottom pair, 9 kicker is goot.

It also means you are playing against a slightly smarter fish, pulling the river check raise, because usually the check/caller chaser all of a sudden bets out -- the donk bet, I believe, when they do hit. Like they are afraid all of a sudden you aren't going to bet your hand like you have been doing on every other street, and might check it down, and they just HAVE to get that bet in.

How often do you pay off the suck out fish?

[jaxUp]

[ QUOTE ]

It also means you are playing against a slightly smarter fish, pulling the river check raise, because usually the check/caller chaser all of a sudden bets out -- the donk bet, I believe, when they do hit. Like they are afraid all of a sudden you aren't going to bet your hand like you have been doing on every other street, and might check it down, and they just HAVE to get that bet in.

How often do you pay off the suck out fish?

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Without a read it's usually best to fold here. You will very seldom see a bluff, especially assuming that by "fish" you mean "loose-passive". Also, I think donk bet fish are right on par with c/r fish. A lot of players will check that river through, and a donk bet would be a good idea against many other players. I would say that donk bet fish tend to be more weak and c/r fish are slightly more aggressive types.

At the Party .25/.50 tables I've seen cases where someone will do this with TP and a weak kicker so short of reads and depending on how scary the board is I'll make the crying call. I think I'm ahead doing it but I might just be remembering the times I won and forgetting the times I got rivered...

[cold_cash]

How big is the pot?

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
How big is the pot?

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Exactly. This is all dependent on the pot size.

In the scenario descibed in the OP i say call..as the pot must be huge at this point. (thats if 'table of fish' is like > 6 or so)

[cardcounter0]

So if the pot is really big, you go ahead and donate one more bet to it so the passive player who just checked raised you on the river wins a big pot + 1. Interesting.

Since a player is check/calling all the way, he is obviously chasing something, or has something, and the check/raise means he didn't miss (these are passive players, not "tricky" ones).

The check/raise on the river by a passive player means, "I know you have Top Pair, and I have you beat".

I think the number of times that a passive player has checked raised me on the river and didn't have at least TPGK beat would mean the pot would have to have at least $50 in it to be profitable to call in a .5/$1.00 game.

So I think it is safe to say, I am going to fold.

[cardcounter0]

Yes, keep track of this.

Also, are you including players that are trying to "pull a move"? They have top pair, know you have it, and think maybe they can surprise check raise and bluff you off your hand. I am not talking about aggressive players, or LAGS, or bluff happy donks.

I am talking about the table full of passive habitual "check/callers". If one of those check/raises on the river (rather than just becoming the aggessor and betting into you on the river) 99 out of 100 times you are beat.

[ QUOTE ]
At the Party .25/.50 tables I've seen cases where someone will do this with TP and a weak kicker so short of reads and depending on how scary the board is I'll make the crying call. I think I'm ahead doing it but I might just be remembering the times I won and forgetting the times I got rivered...

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I agree.

This is not an uncommon way to play TP weak kicker at many limits. The idea is to lose the least but not let the aggressor check thru at the river (in case they don't have TP). If raised after the donk bet, they would fold.

[DerFleischmeister]

This might be incredibly weak on my part, but most of the time in this scenario (3 or more c/c'ing fish, when I have position), if I still only have TPGK on the river, checked around to me, I check it through as well. Not only have I saved myself a nasty fish c/r, I save myself the fish c/c with a hand that happens to beat mine. Had one fish on a Vegas 3/6 table earlier this week c/c my TPTK bets the whole way...with a flopped SET.

[Abbaddabba]

You'd be a fool to fold the river for one more bet with TPTK in what sounds ilke it would be a large pot against what may very often be erratic players.

Save your brilliant laydowns when you're heads up against someone you have detailed stats against.


At the same time, you're an equally big fool to not value bet TPTK into a sea of low limit hold em players the turn/river were blanks.

You miss out on a bet far more often than you save a bet. The outcome of the hand has already been decided. Checking through wont make their winning hand disappear. Since it isnt heads up, conventional percentages (ie: 66% certainty if you think you get check/raises from all better hands) dont apply. For one, they dont checkraise all better hands. Secondly, you get calls from several hands.