Live 1-2, KK played too weakly?

deadmoney98 · #1 12-30-2005, 04:50 PM

If I raise the flop, yes I think villain folds basically all hands I am beating. I suppose if I made a girly raise he calls with 5-6, but I don't really see why he would lead with that (perhaps cause he thinks I'll just call). He would probably call with TPTK, but I don't think he would limp in at this table with A-Q.

Of course, if I raise the flop, and he has a set things could get complicated.

iceman5 · #2 12-30-2005, 06:04 PM

Calling the flop is fine, but checking behind on the turn is criminal.

deadmoney98 · #3 12-30-2005, 06:10 PM

I really did not think villain had a queen, and for whatever reason thought he had a hand like 99. I guess I just don't really see what betting accomplishes other than the obvious, which is taking it down right there, obviously an acceptable outcome. With bottom set in Villain's position, I would look to checkraise sometimes on the turn after that flop action (probably not in this particular game, but you get the idea.)

Anyway, what worse hand calls if I bet on the turn? Against most players in this game I would bet/raise all streets, but I just felt like I was WA/WB here.

Edited to add: His flop bet was a little bigger than the table standard, so I kind of felt like he was trying to end then hand right there, which his check on the turn helped to confirm. So why not check behind and let him take another shot on the river?

iceman5 · #4 12-30-2005, 06:21 PM

Well if you dont bet the turn and he hits his 2 outter on the river for free, youre going to be pretty pissed. He also could have 56s of hes tricky.

Also, its pretty rare in these low limit games for someone to lead the flop and the check raise the turn. Check raises in general are pretty rare in the games Ive played.

Also, I would bet the turn here with any hand given this action. Youre playing the hand like someone who has AK, not KK.

deadmoney98 · #5 12-30-2005, 06:28 PM

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Youre playing the hand like someone who has AK, not KK.

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I agree, and makes me wonder if I should raise on the end. Anyone think I could raise his $25 bet to 75 or 100 and get him to make a "big" call with a lesser holding?

Also, this was certainly a non-standard line for me, but I think it does get the most money from a 55-TT kind of hand. And raising to $30 pre-flop would be totally out of line for the table and no one would call. Anything over $20 has basically no chance of being called (except by AA of course)

swarm · #6 12-30-2005, 06:43 PM

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And raising to $30 pre-flop would be totally out of line for the table and no one would call. Anything over $20 has basically no chance of being called (except by AA of course)

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My suggestion to that would be in these situations you need to be raising to 10-15XBB with more than just premium hands when you have position. You have to create ways for your big pairs to get paid off on. If the table is really that weak beat em up.

Creating or just adhering to situations were you are giving great odds to weak-nits to break you on your premium hands is not good poker.

I would suggest looking into improving your image and play style in different types of games. Dictate the table tempo, don't let tempo dictate you. Get these players out of their comfort zones and outplay them. You can still maintain a TAG style.

swarm · #7 12-30-2005, 06:16 PM

I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me. Is this game that passive? Maybe you need to work on that image or changing gears in passive games.

As played:

Fine with your image smooth call the flop... Why in the world are you checking through on the turn?

Bet the pot man, KK isn't bullet proof. To be a TAG you do have to show an aggressive side you know?

wdeadwyler · #8 12-30-2005, 06:37 PM

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I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me.

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You are a donkey

swarm · #9 12-30-2005, 06:52 PM

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I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me.

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You are a donkey

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Nice informative post, so let me get this straight wdead, you like giving odds to 4 limpers to hit sets when your holding a 175BB stack. Maybe 30 is a bit much in this passive of game but i'm at least making my standard raise wtih 3-4 limpers in front of me 24 and increasing based on the looseness of the game.

If you don't know how to manipulate your villans into calling your preflop raises to 10-15BB's without odds or really thin odds preflop when you have premium hands then you sir are the donkey. Why don't you go back to the small stakes forum where you belong...

wdeadwyler · #10 12-31-2005, 02:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm raising this more preflop, I would have made it 30, i'm not playing KK 4-5 handed, especially with a deeper stack against a villan that covers me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a donkey

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Nice informative post, so let me get this straight wdead, you like giving odds to 4 limpers to hit sets when your holding a 175BB stack. Maybe 30 is a bit much in this passive of game but i'm at least making my standard raise wtih 3-4 limpers in front of me 24 and increasing based on the looseness of the game.

If you don't know how to manipulate your villans into calling your preflop raises to 10-15BB's without odds or really thin odds preflop when you have premium hands then you sir are the donkey. Why don't you go back to the small stakes forum where you belong...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, donkey

edit: seriously though, just cuz I am giving villain's "implied" odds doesnt mean I have to get stacked off every time KK gets outflopped. I have laid down KK post flop many times and will do so in the future. I am sorry for the rude nature of my previous post, but I strongly believe that raising to 10-15xBB preflop (unless # of limpers dicate) is poor poker play. What are you gonna do when a solid thinking player sees what you are doing and exploit it. You suggest raising more hands to 15xbb than just premium pairs to mix it up? Do you do this? Does this work? Seems like you would just be bleeding money away, because the whole crux of your arguement is that the players will call with bad hands anyway.

Telling me to go back to small stakes where I belong was brilliant. I think we should all strive to make those who are attempting to transition from SSNL to MSNL feel as uncomfortable as possible until they all leave.

Edited to remove another uneeded rude comment, what is with my temper these days?