ATs against a LAG - Page 2

einbert · #11 11-19-2005, 02:06 AM

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If he had JJ+ preflop, he'd cap (and probably 3-bet the turn).

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Probably on both counts, but I have seen plenty of lags smoothcall preflop threebets with big pairs. But as far as threebetting the turn, I totally agree with you. Plus his preflop smoothcall/flop donkbet doesn't seem indicative of a big pocket pair.

I think this hand is fine Jason. As you said "you have a history" with him. In my opinion, the thing about these "histories" is that they are almost impossible to convey unless you've actually been there. For example I played this hand yesterday that I would have played totally differently if it weren't for the specific history I had against this player:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Now if I came onto the forum and posted this guy's stats and this hand, it wouldn't make any sense at all and everyone would think I was crazy. But given our history, I just felt that this was the way to play this hand. I guess you could say I went with the instincts that have been supposedly developing during my 250K hands of LHE.

So nice hand.

Entity · #12 11-19-2005, 02:25 AM

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Ok, this hand is a disaster. Why do you 3 bet preflop??? Small Stakes hold them specifically says to fold AT to a raise. This kind of preflop looseness is what i look for in a table. Your flop call is ok because you bloated the pot with an awful 3 bet so i guess you have to. On the turn, you might be behind 3 sevens so why on earth would you raise? You cant beat trips with this hand. I would probably call for my image but then fold the river. The river is the worst of all. Yeah you have a full house but even those need to be valued relatively to our opponents possible hands (read: quads). you are spewing here and wont be able to move up limits with play like this.

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You really are a donkey.

Jason, you played this hand fine.

Rob

newhizzle · #13 11-19-2005, 02:29 AM

jason - i like it, for once we can agree on something i guess

anyway, to address eeyores questions:

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Why do you 3 bet preflop???

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this guys a LAG, so his opening range is probably pretty wide, although 16%PFR is not that high, theres still a good chance that ATs has him beat, especially if jason has a read on him that he likes to open Ax or something(i dont know if he does or not), for an UTG raise ATs is probably near the bottom of the range id 3-bet with here

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On the turn, you might be behind 3 sevens so why on earth would you raise?

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theres really no reason to put this guy on a seven, i think this raise is very standard

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I would probably call for my image but then fold the river. The river is the worst of all. Yeah you have a full house but even those need to be valued relatively to our opponents possible hands (read: quads). you are spewing here and wont be able to move up limits with play like this.

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folding the river is out of the question, im not giving this guy credit for quads or an overpair at this point, keep in mind hes a loose-aggressive and jason has a history with him being overly aggressive, i dont know how much value there is to a 3-bet, but i dont know the player, i think this hand is played fine if this guy is truely a LAG

edit - i just realized this guy might be a gimmick account

einbert · #14 11-19-2005, 02:36 AM

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On the turn, you might be behind 3 sevens so why on earth would you raise? You cant beat trips with this hand. I would probably call for my image but then fold the river.

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I fold.

Eurotrash · #15 11-19-2005, 02:41 AM

does nobody actually get this (Eeyore's) post?

regarding the hand, unless the guy is the tricky/bad type who wouldn't cap it PF, it seems like we have the best hand. so I guess the 3 bet is ok vs. this guy given the read and history, otherwise i'd be calling the river raise.

DrewOnTilt · #16 11-19-2005, 02:49 AM

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does nobody actually get this (Eeyore's) post?

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It's obviously not meant to be a serious post, but I'm not sure what the point of it is?

NH Jason. With that specific read I play it the same, except I'm not going to 3-bet the river unless I am 100% sure of myself. Against most LAGs this is a WA/WB situation on the last card.

Entity · #17 11-19-2005, 04:23 AM

A close friend has convinced me that this is closer to a fold than a 3-bet preflop. We both agree that it's a 3-bet if it's 8-handed, and while I'm on the fence, I'm willing to rethink it. AJs is still an insta3bet, as is AJo+. I'm 3-betting 88 there, though 99 is the cutoff for mi amigo.

toss · #18 11-19-2005, 04:25 AM

I can think we can better decide to 3-bet PF if we know if villain changes his raises standard with position. I think this 3-bet is thin, but then again I'm weaker than most here.

Richard Berg · #19 11-19-2005, 04:32 AM

Looks great, Jason. He'll call your 3bet with a worse T, 9, or pair more than enough to make up for the times he's holding a strangely played KK. My only question is whether the villian's preflop lagginess is position-aware, and if so, how many people are behind him UTG.

jason_t · #20 11-19-2005, 06:57 AM

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A close friend has convinced me that this is closer to a fold than a 3-bet preflop. We both agree that it's a 3-bet if it's 8-handed, and while I'm on the fence, I'm willing to rethink it. AJs is still an insta3bet, as is AJo+. I'm 3-betting 88 there, though 99 is the cutoff for mi amigo.

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If AJs is an insta 3-bet how is ATs close to a fold?