Cards in the muck - dead hand?

Player B didn't crying call, he raised, knowing he was beat, the moment A mucked. Clearly an angle shot.

[NLSoldier]

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Player B didn't crying call, he raised, knowing he was beat, the moment A mucked. Clearly an angle shot.

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where in the OP does it say player B raised?

[bdypdx]

"...Player B THEN throws in the bet... "

He didn't raise.

[Benoit]

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Player B didn't crying call, he raised, knowing he was beat, the moment A mucked. Clearly an angle shot.

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where in the OP does it say player B raised?

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Player B would have had to raise to make this angle work. Just calling and pretending to concede would have meant player A's hand was fouled by the muck but not dead yet if ruled retrievable.

im a BnM total noob so please humor me....

1) when you say a player stands up and "spikes" his hand, form the description i assume you mean smashes it down on the table to look cool?

2) can someone give me the fine details of what happens at showdown in the states? it sounds like you are physically holding on to your cards until the pot has been pushed to you? is that correct?

at my casino, which has only been playing poker a month or so. the way it normally works is: bets are called at showdown, the called player flips over his cards onto the table, all the randoms flip over thier cards in random order onto the table, the dealer kind of moves each person's hand near the board to determin the best hand. then the pot gets pushed, then all the hands that were shown-down are moved to the muck by the dealer.

i guess im asking is, when you say "protect" your hand, do you mean physically holding onto your cards until the dealer pushes you the pot? because at my casino, the dealer just takes your cards when you show them.

[DZgroundhog]

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at my casino, which has only been playing poker a month or so. the way it normally works is: bets are called at showdown, the called player flips over his cards onto the table, all the randoms flip over thier cards in random order onto the table, the dealer kind of moves each person's hand near the board to determin the best hand. then the pot gets pushed, then all the hands that were shown-down are moved to the muck by the dealer.

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Yeah, that's how it works when there's a showdown. When we say "protecting your hand," it's actually when there's no showdown and everybody folds to your bet. Hang onto your cards until the dealer ships you the pot.

I think this is especially important if you're sitting in the 1 or 10 seats (or 9 or 11 depending on how many they allow at a table) since it's sometimes tough to tell if somebody just on the other side of the dealer is still in the hand. If I hadn't remembered to hang onto my cards until I had the pot in front of me, I might have lost a pot the other night when I was in seat 1 and thought everybody had folded but seat 10 still had his cards.

I dislike when dealers don't announce how many are in the hand as they deal each street since it's sometimes tough to see from seats 1 or 10 (or from anywhere if somebody has their hands over their cards).

DZ

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The muck is the muck. Cards touch them, they are dead. It makes things much easier to think of it as such and use it that way, don't you think?

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No I don't. I don't think the muck is magical. If the dealer sweeps up live cards from a player in seat 10 (that werere not intended to be folded) and throws them on top of the muck, and the dealer is certain which two cards they were I see no reason why a floorperson should not give them back to the player.

In this case it was never Player A's intention to relinquish his hand. I don't see why you are willing to give Player B the benefit of the doubt on his intent, but don't think the intent of player A matters.

Suppose two players come to showdown. Player 1 shows his hand player 2 announces a better hand and tosses his cards towards the center of the table in a manner that appears they will land faceup, but the cards bounce and one card lands face down touching the mucking .. . . The dealer is100% certain which card it is? Do you have problem with the dealer flipping it face up and awarding the pot to Player 2?

[meep_42]

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No I don't. I don't think the muck is magical.

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Some guy last night was arguing that is was. :P
Basically, the Villain and some random were heads up in the pot and the random was all-in on the turn with K9r+7Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]s. Villain turns over JT[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] after the all-in on the turn, and the river is the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The random looks at the hand and we can all tell that he thinks he loses, but the Villains curiousity gets the better of him and he asks the Random what he had (he still has his cards). Random gets ready to toss them in, but upon hearing this, tosses K7 face up onto the table (for the rivered 4 outer), with one or both cards catching part of the muck. Villain then tries to angle shoot by calling the floor and trying to get the hand declared dead -- to the floor's credit, he didn't laugh in his face, but the Villain didn't get the pot either.

-d

[juanez]

"Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. Every effort will be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of any misinformation given by another player."

I ruled that Player A gets the pot, thinking that it was "in the best interest of the game" to ruin any angle shooting by Player B. Plus, the guy had a flush on the flop, bet the whole way, and then mucks after he bets the river? It seemed pretty obvious that he acted based on the statement by Player B.

I spoke to the dealer on her next break and she said that Player B was certainly angle shooting. He was shaking his head and looked at his cards for a little while, then said the "You got it man" line. He was obviously going to fold, in her opinion. After Player A threw his cards, Player B immediately grabbed chips, called the bet, and declared Player A's hand dead. He was a "The muck is magical" guy. I am confident I made the right decision in this case.

Player A got the brief "Always protect your cards until the pot is pushed to you" lecture.

Player B demanded to see the rules about mucked cards not necessarily being instantly dead. While away from the table, I also gave him the brief "It's pretty crappy to try to win on a technicality like that when you know damn well you were beat" lecture.

No nut kicking took place.

[Photoc]

Juanez, you made the right call. I'm not going to read all the replies to this because you were correct. The hand "MAY" be retrievable if CLEARLY identifiable if it's in the best interest of the game. Player B shot an angle and got F'kd for it.

Anyways, we booted a player permanently when I was on graveyard for doing the exact same thing in a 2/5 NL game many times to players that were a bit newer. He would either call or almost call and say "you got it" or "you win" and get the other player to toss their cards into the muck. Then he takes the pot since he now tables his cards face up. I finally said something to the floor (first time I saw it) and the floor watched for a bit. The next day, same thing, out the door he went, never to be heard from again. He would have been gone way before that but the floor/shift manager never knew what was going on.