K8s....dream flop, but 2 bets to me..?

[Harv72b]

Reads: Second orbit at the table. So far it had seemed like the perfect LP-N table. UTG+1 is incredibly loose/passive preflop, uberaggressive postflop...I'm not sure he understands the concept of kickers.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero...?</font>

As soon as I saw the flop come down, my mouse was hovering over the raise button. But now that it's two to me, am I better off 3-betting or smooth-calling &amp; hoping for overcalls?

[Malcom Reynolds]

I'd just call and hope for overcallers.

[SamIAm]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just call and hope for overcallers.

[/ QUOTE ]I think I'd agree if he just had the flush-draw, but he has 2nd pair, too. When the action comes to the hero on the flop, the pot's 9.5 BB. That's already big.

With the value raise, you wouldn't be so sad if everybody added an additional bet. (You've a more than 1/3 chance to win the pot.) However, since you're pretty happy if another K or another 8 fall, it's not so bad to make the pot heads-up. You'd be plenty happy if UTG only had KT and folded to your 3-bet.
-Sam

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
You'd be plenty happy if UTG only had KT and folded to your 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I would be happy, unless I knew I was ahead of UTG+1 (and I doubt I am). If UTG has KT and folds, I pick up one king out (that's all that's left in the deck) and also don't have to worry as much about a redraw (to a better two pair) if I catch my eight. I think it'd be better for me if UTG stayed in, if I knew I needed to improve to win anyway.

Still, I don't know how many overcalls I'll get even if I do just call, so I'd be tempted to 3-bet (which might also get me a free card on the turn, if I want it).

[Harv72b]

Well....I'm glad at least to see that the right move isn't something obvious &amp; intuitive that I didn't see at the time. I paused for about 2 seconds before going with option A &amp; clicking the raise button to make it 3 bets to go to the rest of the field. I didn't think it through in that span of time, obviously, but looking back I feel like 3-betting was right for several reasons (please correct me if I'm wrong on any):

1) I'm on a superstrong draw, and I want to pump the pot.
2) There's a good chance I can fold a weak A or two. I've probably still got at least 1 ace out there anyway, but hey...that's one less possible aces up to worry about if I catch an 8.
3) The players behind me are still more likely to call 3 cold on the flop than 2 on the turn, which I do want if my draw comes in and/or I'm ahead of them now.
4) If a 3rd [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn, my action is likely to dry up almost completely, especially if I raise an early bet. The A is on the board and I've got the K, so the supply of high diamonds that would call hoping for a redraw is pretty thin.
5) I could get the free card if I want it. Based on past history &amp; my own tendencies, I'd probably bet the turn if checked to on a blank anyway. I'm goofy like that.
6) I'm trying to bring up my overall AF. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

If anyone's interested, here's how the hand played out in full:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (13.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

I milked the clock for about 8 seconds on the turn trying to look like I was afraid of the flush, and I guess it worked.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I think I'd agree if he just had the flush-draw, but he has 2nd pair, too.

Crap, I missed that. He should definitely 3-bet for value here. He may have up to 55% equity here, so even if everyone except UTG+1 folds he may be making money on the raise. Any cold callers give tons of overlay. If UTG cold calls we are sitting extremely pretty.

[SCfuji]

this isn't exactly a dream flop, but it is pretty nice. I would smooth-call here in hopes of keeping everybody in the pot.

[Net Warrior]

I'd like to know what you are doing playing K8s with 2 limpers? You're the one who doesn't understand about kickers it seems. There's not enough $ in the pot to play for the flush!

[Harv72b]

Loose passive table, so I can expect callers behind me preflop.

SSH recommends playing down to K9s from there...I felt the overall qualities of the table justified pushing it down one notch.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to know what you are doing playing K8s with 2 limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

The right thing? It's a loose passive table preflop. I'm 99% certain that it's +EV to play K8s here.