Draw to Royal - too tempting to pass up?

DVC Calif · #1 09-20-2004, 12:42 PM

I'm not sure if my betting on the flop was correct. After SB reraised/pushed, I knew I was up against trip A's but couldn't resist calling for the Royal draw. I had a good outs with the nut flush/gutshot straight draws but overlooked the possibility that Villain may have had a full house or draws to the boat.

I would like comments from more advanced players.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t380)
Hero (t785)
MP2 (t775)
MP3 (t755)
CO (t775)
Button (t895)
SB (t1795)
BB (t600)
UTG (t1240)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15, MP3 folds, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, SB raises to t50, BB folds, UTG calls t35, Hero calls t35, MP2 calls t35, CO folds, Button folds.

Flop: (t245) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t245, MP2 folds, SB raises to t800, UTG folds, Hero calls t490 (All-In).

Turn: (t1780) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1780) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1780
Main Pot: t1715 (t1715), between Hero and SB. > Pot won by Hero (t1715).
Pot 2: t65 (t65), returned to SB.

Results in white below: 
SB has Ad Kc (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Ks Js (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins t1715. SB wins t65. 

Thanks, Steve

adanthar · #2 09-20-2004, 01:57 PM

I would have folded PF after the raise (debatable, but this hand will either win 200 or lose 300-800 when a K flops; not good), and I would certainly not bet this flop which is screaming 'slowplay' all over it. It's not as if you're scared of seeing a free card here.

Once you did bet, you had to call 500 to win 1700 and had the odds...so, congratulations, you pot committed yourself to a hand with anywhere from 1 to 12 outs. In this case, you got mildly lucky and it turned out to be all 12. Greeeaaaat. Good thing he didn't have AcQs.

DVC Calif · #3 09-20-2004, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...I would certainly not bet this flop which is screaming 'slowplay' all over it. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I was concerned about someone slowplaying but thought he would bet out to protect his set from the possible flush draw on the board. Since it got checked to me, I thought I'd bet to see if I could semi-bluff a steal if no one had the ace. I was hoping to chase out MP2 and get position for a free river card. (I'm still learning concepts, so let me know if that was unwise.)

Folding PF would probably have been the best move in retrospect.

Thanks, Steve

CitricAcid13 · #4 09-20-2004, 04:32 PM

With about 1275 in the pot and only about 490 left, I think it would be the right move. This would put you pretty low but if you hit (which you did), you would be a huge chip lead. If you assume the other player has an ace, then you have 12 outs out of 46. So getting about 3:1 on your money, I think it was the right call

Jason Strasser · #5 09-20-2004, 06:01 PM

I probably would've been more likely to check/raise all-in on the flop rather than bet out. It stinks betting out in EP with a hand like this and getting called... especially when a pot sized bet is 1/3 of your stack. I'll check and either fold or push to a nice bet.

BTW, this draw is not so good. I personally would probably check/fold the flop, or see the turn in multi-way action for a good price by check-calling. Any board pair, and any kicker card (you were lucky to share the king) really give your opponent a lot of redraws.

-Jason

adanthar · #6 09-20-2004, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was concerned about someone slowplaying but thought he would bet out to protect his set from the possible flush draw on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible he would, but not necessary; it's not THAT risky to give a free card on this relatively crippled board with an A. Moreover, with three opponents that cold called on Party, it is likely (probably >50%) that at least one does have an ace.

[ QUOTE ]
Since it got checked to me, I thought I'd bet to see if I could semi-bluff a steal if no one had the ace. I was hoping to chase out MP2 and get position for a free river card. (I'm still learning concepts, so let me know if that was unwise.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically, you aren't betting here to take a free card on the turn. If somebody calls your bet, you have to assume they have an ace, but if the flush card comes on the river your action will be killed. If somebody checkraises, they certainly have an ace, but you'll have the odds to call. If MP2 raises you- even a minraise- you have to call and the others will fold without paying you off...etc. None of the actions that result from this, except for the unlikely trio of folds, are good for you.

Also, betting the pot and betting 1/2 the pot accomplish the same thing here.

Bluff Daddy · #7 09-20-2004, 08:45 PM

I think the bet on the flop is too large