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#1
10-07-2005, 11:46 AM
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Raising 77 after 5 limpers
I was reading this post from the digest: limpers & button
In the responses, lots of people are raising 77 from the button after 5 limpers. Seems to me like a great spot to call since there's almost no chance of winning unimproved - we want to see a flop as cheaply as possible, and we want the blinds along. Doesn't a raise cut our implied odds in half? Aren't these mediocre pocket pairs all about implied odds for the set? (Especially with so many players involved.) These hands play well multiway when they hit. If you don't hit your set, 77 is garbage against a field of 5. Is the idea that we might get a free look at the turn if we don't hit the flop? Doesn't seem worth it to me. I would raise this after 7 limpers for value, maybe 6 if I'm confident that the blinds will come along. 5 doesn't do it for me. Magic number for these weak-ish pocket pairs is 8:1 for value raises. What's up? 
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#2
10-07-2005, 11:52 AM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
implied odds. also bloats the pot so 5 or 6 outers that are virtually drawing dead to your set may pay off?
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#4
10-07-2005, 11:59 AM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] implied odds [/ QUOTE ] ? [/ QUOTE ] you don't think you have implied odds if you hit your set with 5 limpers?
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#5
10-07-2005, 12:01 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] implied odds [/ QUOTE ] ? [/ QUOTE ] you don't think you have implied odds if you hit your set with 5 limpers? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I think this is the case. Almost any draw will follow you to the turn. Edit: And I can assure you, it pays off when you get boat against some flushes [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#6
10-07-2005, 12:02 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] implied odds [/ QUOTE ] ? [/ QUOTE ] you don't think you have implied odds if you hit your set with 5 limpers? [/ QUOTE ] Implied odds is a reason to call, not raise. For example, we are roughly 8:1 to hit our set, but might call 1 sb vs 3 opponents because we have implied odds.
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#7
10-07-2005, 12:02 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't a raise cut our implied odds in half? [/ QUOTE ] Edit: No. (For some reason, I was reading fast and thinking that it just asked if implied odds go down.) [ QUOTE ] Aren't these mediocre pocket pairs all about implied odds for the set? (Especially with so many players involved.) [/ QUOTE ] No. It's about the total money you make. Implied odds are how you make your money, but higher implied odds does not mean more money. Suppose you have implied odds of 15:1 when you play for just one bet. So when you limp preflop and hit your set, you win 15 small bets. Since you are 8:1 to flop a set, you make money. Suppose you have implied odds of 12:1 when you raise preflop. So when you hit your set, you win ten times the preflop investment, which is a total of 24 small bets. You still make money, but you make more of it. Is it worth it? Compute the EV: Limping EV = (-1)*(8) + (15)*(1) = 7 Raising EV = (-2)*(8) + (12)*(2) = 8 Another way of looking at it is subtracting the extra 8 SB that you lose from the 24 (16) and comparing it to the amount you win when you limp (15). Either way, raising is better (based on these assumptions).
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#8
10-07-2005, 12:05 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] implied odds [/ QUOTE ] ? [/ QUOTE ] you don't think you have implied odds if you hit your set with 5 limpers? [/ QUOTE ] Of course but putting more money in the pot preflop cuts your implied odds down postflop.
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#9
10-07-2005, 12:27 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
This is potentially the answer to my question, but I need some more help getting there.
[ QUOTE ] Suppose you have implied odds of 15:1 when you play for just one bet. So when you limp preflop and hit your set, you win 15 small bets. Since you are 8:1 to flop a set, you make money. Suppose you have implied odds of 12:1 when you raise preflop. So when you hit your set, you win ten times the preflop investment, which is a total of 24 small bets. You still make money, but you make more of it. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming we will have 15:1 implied odds, how did you get 12:1 after the raise? [ QUOTE ] Is it worth it? Compute the EV: Limping EV = (-1)*(8) + (15)*(1) = 7 Raising EV = (-2)*(8) + (12)*(2) = 8 [/ QUOTE ] Why are you multiplying by 2 here? (forgive me if these clarifications seem elementary, I may be learning [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])
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#10
10-07-2005, 12:34 PM
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Re: Raising 77 after 5 limpers
[ QUOTE ]
This is potentially the answer to my question, but I need some more help getting there. [ QUOTE ] Suppose you have implied odds of 15:1 when you play for just one bet. So when you limp preflop and hit your set, you win 15 small bets. Since you are 8:1 to flop a set, you make money. Suppose you have implied odds of 12:1 when you raise preflop. So when you hit your set, you win ten times the preflop investment, which is a total of 24 small bets. You still make money, but you make more of it. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming we will have 15:1 implied odds, how did you get 12:1 after the raise? [/ QUOTE ] Your preflop raise affects the dynamics of the hands. Players will tend to chase more and pay off more because of the increased pot size. Also, some players will play their hands more aggressively when the pot gets big. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Is it worth it? Compute the EV: Limping EV = (-1)*(8) + (15)*(1) = 7 Raising EV = (-2)*(8) + (12)*(2) = 8 [/ QUOTE ] Why are you multiplying by 2 here? (forgive me if these clarifications seem elementary, I may be learning [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) [/ QUOTE ] I'm multiplying by 2 because I'm using the implied odds value. I win 12 times the preflop investment, which is 2 becaue I raised.
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