JT hand

[M.B.E.]

Middle of $150 online tourney, blinds 400/800 ante 50. My stack is 24000, one of the largest at the table.

A player with 6000 limps in EP, cutoff (big stack) limps, I have JTo on the button and limp. SB completes, BB checks (both medium stacks, around 12000).

Pot 4400. Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. (I don't have any spade.) Checked to the cutoff, a generally aggressive player, who bets 3200. That leaves him with 17000; I have him covered by a little. What's my play?

[ononimo]

without any spades, i want to see the turn as cheaply as possible so i'm playing this cautiously and just calling here. i don't raise b/c i don't want to face a re-raise. i want to make sure i can get away from the hand if SB or BB decide to get frisky or a spade hits the turn and someone bets into me.

if even if call and fold to a bet on a turn blank, i'm still at approx T20,000 (>20 BB) with several hands before i face the blinds.

[Exitonly]

i play OESD+2 overs probably more aggressively than i should, but i'm raising to 10k, and pushing the non-spade turn. (or calling his push on the flop)

lets see pot size is approximately 7600 and bet to you is 3200. you have 8 outs. 47 cards so you need at least 2.5:1. Normally heads up and having this size of a dominant stack, you have the proper odds to call, however there are still 3 players left to act after you. I'm not real worried about EP who checked flop and range of hands for blind limpers could be ANYTHING including having flopped 2 pair. I fold this even with the implied odds (I believe the flush draw negates some of your implied odds anyway).

[woodguy]

I think I call.

If the CO's betting a pair you have 14 outs.

If the CO's betting a flush draw, you probably have ~10 outs (assuming you dodge the spades)

If you rasie the flop you need to raise almost 1/2 your stack, so you are pretty well PC'd if the CO jams or the blinds/UTG jams, and you may be drawing to as little as 6 outs.

Since raising opens a can worms I don't like, I think a call is ok, folding to a c/r by the blinds/utg. edit: although a flop raise may win the pot right there....

Folding isn't horrible given the uncertainty in your outs, and the happiness of maintaining a nice chips position, but with the button and a healthy stack peeling one off is probably what I would do.

Regards,
Woodguy

I don't like calling on the flop without a spade and with sb and bb yet to act. Since I could be wasting a call because if they were to CR i am dumping. My personally would prob fold this PF cuz thats just my style.. I'd rather be rasing PF then calling. And would either raise this on the turn which might get me in to big trouble but I think I have my outs.. or folding. No calling this flop bet for me. Oh and as far as pot odds go I'm getting about 2-1 to see a turn card (7200-3200)when I need to be getting about 4-1 to correctly call a turn (not taking into account implied odds)

agree with the fold, but you are talking about calling 3200, then you are talking about calling the flop, not the turn. Also you are missing the 500 (or 450) in antes, so you are calling 3200 in a 7700 pot, approx 2.4:1.

You have 8 outs to the straight (assuming you can include the 2 flush cards). 47 unknown cards or 39:8 = approx 5:1. You have TWO cards remaining giving you 2.5:1 odds.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
i play OESD+2 overs probably more aggressively than i should, but i'm raising to 10k, and pushing the non-spade turn. (or calling his push on the flop)

[/ QUOTE ]

that's pretty good, but i think i prefer a push. you're putting in half of your effective stack with a normal raise to 10k, so i don't think pushing is too suspicious. the downside is that he may correctly read us for a semi-bluff and make a big call with something like T9, but i think that leaving him 10k behind makes it possible that he'll reraise all-in with a non-nut flush draw that he probably folds if we push.

i don't like the plan of calling because it will be hard to play the J/T/spade outs correctly and get maximum value. if one of the blinds calls, we're going to wind up making a lot of mistakes if we hit any out besides the non-spade straight cards.

[MLG]

I don't mind pushing here, but if you are you better at least occasionally be pushing with your monsters too.

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and as far as pot odds go I'm getting about 2-1 to see a turn card (7200-3200)when I need to be getting about 4-1 to correctly call a turn (not taking into account implied odds)

[/ QUOTE ]

You should always take into account imlied odds, and you also have J & T outs, as well as the straight outs.

Regards,
Woodguy